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Secondary education

What is known about this 'gaining evidence' for GCSEs and A level grades?

78 replies

Pebbles574 · 26/03/2020 12:02

Had a very vague letter from the school about how the Year 13s should keep making notes and doing past papers as this will be 'valuable evidence' to support their proposed grades from teachers.

I haven't been able to find answers to a number of specific questions about all of this:

  • if a student has ACTUALLY completed coursework already (e.g. Design/ Drama etc) will this be externally marked and the mark used or will the teacher now just look at it/ assess it?
  • Are schools meant to me keeping them doing revision-style activities all the way until when they were meant to go on study leave?
  • what is the schools' cut-off point for these grade recommendations?


Any teachers with inside knowledge?
OP posts:
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noblegiraffe · 27/03/2020 11:41

Yeah mine too. It will be an amazingly useful set of data. If they do use it our kids predicted grades will be closely scrutinised.

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BubblesBuddy · 27/03/2020 17:08

There are many parents who are very able to coach their DC! They would have a massive advantage. Surely the schools must only use data produced whilst DC were in school. It’s not really private vs state, it’s educated parents who can help vs those who cannot whilst DC are at home.

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EwwSprouts · 27/03/2020 17:32

Wouldn't making the MIDYIS/YELLIS data available at a national level be immensely helpful in standardising across schools given the huge number of pupils who sit them?

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JulesJules · 27/03/2020 17:46

D1 (Y13 A levels) has no work set. Curriculum finished, they've just been advised to read, unless they want to take the delayed exams in September, in which case, consolidate and revise work.
School texted today to say they will have more info on how grades will be awarded next week and will keep everyone informed. So far they've said grades will be based on info from achieved GCSE grades, predicted A level grades, mock exam results from January and any completed NEAs.

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Aragog · 27/03/2020 17:50

DD is in Y13 and not been told to do anything more in particular.
She has been doing NEA coursework but the teachers have all now said that they won't return them with feedback to work on anymore.

No other work has been set and no recommendations to do anything more wither.

Its now our school Easter holidays so don't think we will hear anything more for another fortnight at least.

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FrippEnos · 27/03/2020 18:01

Still not sure what will be done re NEAs though, the marks of which are not recorded yet...

At my school this is the time of year when various pupils realise that they need to work. So in some cases this could raise marks by 15-20%

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Darbs76 · 27/03/2020 18:57

We had the same for my year 11 son. Same kind of message that they might be asked for evidence though unlikely.

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BackforGood · 27/03/2020 20:53

Oh. That's interesting @ClassicallyConditioned. I wrongly then presumed that would be fairly unusual. Smile



What are NEAs ?

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Oblomov20 · 27/03/2020 21:06

Following with interest. I don't understand it.

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Piggywaspushed · 27/03/2020 21:13

NEAs are coursework.

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ClassicallyConditioned · 27/03/2020 21:24

@BackForGood Target grades in my school are often inflated so as to be "aspirational" Hmm If a student's A level target is a B, but they got a C for AS and Cs/Ds all year, then well there's no way I'm predicting them a B, no matter how much last minute cramming they reckon they would have done!

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BackforGood · 27/03/2020 21:35

Oh, that's strange. I assumed all UCAS predicted grades were done on evidence such as assessment and class work and course work in Yr12, and the first month of Yr13
What is the point in telling UCAS they are likely to get an B, if they are working at Cs and Ds ? Surely they are then only going to be disappointed on results day and have a scramble through clearing or not be able to go ? Confused

Funny how we all tend to assume everyone does the same as our experience of something Smile

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ClassicallyConditioned · 27/03/2020 21:59

@BackforGood I think you've confused target grades & predicted grades. Target grades are generated at the start of y12 based on their GCSE results. In my school they have a policy of never giving a target lower than a C, which is slightly ridiculous given that most of them scrape into the sixth form with nothing more than a small handful of 3s and 4s.

UCAS predicted grades are done in y13, based on proper evidence as you describe.

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WombatChocolate · 28/03/2020 14:10

I think thismwill have to be a big statistical exercise, based largely on prior attainment of students and schools, with pretty limited input and impact from schools.

Schools have a wide range of evidence which isn't comparable. They set mocks differently and record attainment differently, so askimg for specific types of info won't work as its not comparable. Probably schools won't be asked for evidence as it isn't comparable, nor a breakdown of statistics, but just one overall expected final grade given a variety of pieces of info a school might want to bear in mind depending on which they actually have. This will be an expected grade a candidate would have achieved innthensummer exams....not the same as the level they are working at now.

Ofqual will feed this info into their formula, but probably more important will be students' prior attainment at GCSE and school prior attainment at A Level over several years.

In the end Ofqal need similar proportions to get similar grades in each subject to previous years. To do this they will have to project forward. Perhaps schools will be asked to rank students in each subject. Then if for example, a school usually gets 30% A in maths, they will factor in their prior attainment at GCSE, the teacher predicted grades and award 35% of student (to be on the safe side) an A at that school.

This really will be the only fair way in this situation, given making comparisons and considering individual pieces of evidence just won't be viable. The outcome will be that students with excellent GCSEs in schools which historically get excellent A Levels, will get excellent grades this summer. This would happen if they sat the exams and it will still happen under this system. In less highly performing schools, some students will get top grades, but less than in the previously mentioned schools....as is always the case. For most students the outcomes will be fair. And this is key, it has to be fair for most students. Some students might feel disadvantaged - they might say they didn't do so well at GCSE but we're going to do brilliantly at A Level. Of course we will never know as they won't sit the exam, but in reality, few do brilliantly as A Level after poor GCSEs. Ofqal might be able to incorporate something into their formula for disadvantaged students because actually there is evidence that they often do underperform at GCSE - this would probably rely on some info from schools abiut individuals.

Schools that over estimate the grades for their students won't actually get higher grades - because student prior attainment at GCSE and the school prior attainment will be huge factors in determining outcomes.

Some students will be disappointed. That is always the case when people take exams too. In this scenario where they feel the outcomes are unfair, the chance to appeal is likely to be a chance to sit the exam in the autumn whenever that might be. It is unlikely to be based on providing evidence as again, it is just impossible to gather comparable evidence. Only an exam could be used as a genuine challenge. Most won't want to sit an exam in the autumn but the option will be open to all.

This is what I think must happen just based on the practical realities of it all. Work students do now won't alter the grade their teacher gives them. Most will get grades which do fairly reflect what they would have been highly likely to achieve....although whether they feel that is what they were likely to achieve isn't always the case - lots of students believe they will do better thanntheybactually do every year. If they feel it's really been unfair or they can do better, they can do the exam. I suspect numbers doing this wil be small but I might be wrong. To do these exams they would have to study and that will be hard at that point, but does give them a genuine chance to prove themselves.

Let's see what happens.....but the more I think about it, the more I think schools won't be asked to submit actual work or break-down their expected grade into lots of little bits of evidence/justification, as those things aren't comparable or practical given the situation.

I think it's out of the student's hands now. No school will want their students to do badly.

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ClassicallyConditioned · 28/03/2020 22:43

@WombatChocolate Spot on. & interesting idea about ranking the students. I don't think that will happen but it would provide more nuance than just giving grades. & it would still be ordinal data so wouldn't affect the calculations too dramatically.

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Hemst · 29/03/2020 13:27

Wombat - what you say makes a lot of sense and it's really interesting, but what do you mean by 'prior attainment' in terms of students? KS2 Sats? I can see that gives a guide as to where a student should be at GCSE, but obviously so much can happen to a student between years 6 to 11. Some just coast/ go off the rails/ can't be arsed. Others grow in confidence and start to fly academically. Surely they can't just go largely on 'prior attainment' as that negates any such variable.

Also, if they go largely on a school's past attainment, that could be tricky too. Progress 8 is obviously indicative and comparable year by year, so a good indicator of whether teachers might be over estimating grades. Still though, it can vary dependent on year groups, so the abilities of a particular cohort, or for example, if a new head has arrived and really ramped up the teaching. I know my DS's school has had a new head in place for a couple of years now and was expecting their Progress 8/ grades to be far higher this year. They've worked really hard to improve things. If what you suggest is true, I suspect it will be deeply unfair on those kids and schools that have worked so hard to improve.

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ClassicallyConditioned · 29/03/2020 17:43

@Hemst Yes some will be unlucky, but at least they have the choice of sitting the exams in autumn if they want to.

The system is never totally "fair" though - there's always luck involved. Some kids will have experienced teachers who can get the best grades out of them, others will have newly qualified or trainee teachers who don't know what they're doing. That's just good/bad luck! Similarly they could get either a generous or harsh examiner - there's so much variation in marking, especially for essay subjects. More good/bad luck!

It's a flawed system but it's the best we can do.

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Hemst · 29/03/2020 17:54

Yes, I agree - no system is ever perfect. I still think that that the moderators need to take teacher's individual assessments of each student into account too though. If it's all done on some algorithm based on a school's previous progress 8, tied in with a student's KS2 results, that seems really unfair. So many kids defy expectations in both directions. Subject teachers are the best at estimating how individual students will do - they know their students up to March 20th! Far more accurate I'd have thought than using how they performed aged 11!

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BackforGood · 29/03/2020 18:24

Helpful post @WombatChocolate

Have to agree that whatever happens, there will be some that feel they've been a little bit lucky and some that feel they have been hard done by, but, as has been said, everyone can only do their best in the circumstances that we are presented with.

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PaddingtonPaddington · 29/03/2020 18:39

Have been thinking about how the ‘exam option as soon at the earliest opportunity’ means for those subjects that have NEA (coursework)? I know no one knows the answer to this but if NEAs haven’t been completed before 20 March will there be an opportunity to do this when schools reopen alongside DCs starting A levels and technically revising too?

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Piggywaspushed · 29/03/2020 18:42

Can't imagine they have even remotely thought any of this through : I reckon they kneejerk said 'oh, let's put in some exams' and will now be regretting this...

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FrippEnos · 29/03/2020 19:00

No school will want their students to do badly.

although I agree this this, Any grade has to be honest and reflect the work ethic of the child.

Especially where NEA is concerned.

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paininthepoinsettia · 03/04/2020 08:50

Dd is doing AS Sport Science and got a text last week saying that they would have their coursework returned to them for corrections (it was completed last month) as it was to be submitted for evidence so the teacher wanted it in tip top shape. I'm concerned that this whole mess combined with lack of time will mean that across the board some children will be greatly disadvantaged.

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TeenPlusTwenties · 03/04/2020 11:59
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ClassicallyConditioned · 03/04/2020 16:44

The new document makes it clear that students are not expected to continue working on NEAs

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