Private school but 5s,6,7,8S gcse results ?

[ROZ12]

Hi all

I feel proud of my dd for achieving all passes but part of me feels disappointed with the school as I paid so much money and expected her to get 7-9s. Am I being silly? I feel like the classic photo of the girls getting all 9s should have been my dd. At least their investment paid off .

[Schoolmumm]

I agree MsTSwift... it is terribly harsh, but the grammars do this too. I know quite a few children who have been denied a place for A level. Sadly this is the case with any selective school which prizes its place on a league table.

[Newgirls]

Very usual round here toast - kids in y5/6 at top private school get letters (to parents) suggesting they apply to other schools. And at y8 and only get into sixth form with all grades over 6 and 7 in chosen subjects, although local state school sixth form also suggests that.

[MyOtherProfile]

Fascinating post OP. What would you expect your money to buy in order to get all 9s?

[MsTSwift]

The admissions scandal in America is this mindset I guess - bribing to get into top universities. Some things money can’t buy - or shouldn’t be able to buy anyway

[Ligresa]

Private schools are nothing like the American admissions scandal.

[LolaSmiles]

Read that article carefully. The government say the igcses are less 'rigorous', they don't mean easier, although it helps the if you think that.
I don't claims they are equally difficult. They're not.

State schools would regularly enter C/D borderline students in for iGCSE English Language (prior to us being told we'd get 0 Inna bucket for performance and the school would get slated) because it was a simpler format than even the old GCSEs.

IGCSE Literature is open book. Normal GCSE is closed book.
iGCSE language has speaking and listening that counts. Normal GCSE doesn't.

iGCSE English Language and Literature are easier courses.

Then again privates being able to enter for easier courses doesn't surprise me when there are parents (like the OP) who seem to think their child should have higher grades because they paid for their education. A private school that knows it can meet the demands of the normal GCSE will do it (our local excellent private does). Others clearly need bums on seats so will out whatever spin they can to make it look like y11 outcomes are worth the money. It wouldn't be good for business to do anything else, and first and foremost private schools are businesses.

[MsTSwift]

I know private schools are nothing like the admissions scandal but the thinking that money can purchase your child academic advantage (as plain from op original post) is totally like it

[Ligresa]

iGCSE English Language and Literature are easier courses

This is a tired, hackneyed trope that just isn't true.

[LolaSmiles]

This is a tired, hackneyed trope that just isn't true
So explain then why schools would put their C/D borderline in for iGCSE and not the old spec GCSE?

How come the old iGcse spec was open book (and the 0092 version still is, other than the option that only UK can use)?

Explain how it's not easier for the UK only option for iGCSE lit not to have an option of a passage based question OR an essay, but those sitting the normal GCSE must cover the whole text whilst getting their mark capped in the 2nd lowest band if they only talk about an extract.

And that the new UK spec options was only going to run 2017-2019 before they take it off the table and replace it a specification that will not be regulated by ofqual (spec 0092):
From 2020 examination this syllabus will be replaced by syllabus 0992. This replacement syllabus will not be regulated by Ofqual.
And what a surprise, the 0092 specification has coursework for iGCSE (but the normal GCSE doesn't)

The 0092 iGCSE splits the exams up into 45 minute chunks (but the normal GCSE involves a 2h15minutr exam and those with SEND and access arrangements can easily have 3h+)

0092 specification also allows students to do open book exams (normal GCSE is all closed book)

It does seem awfully convenient that those outside the state sector can have:
Open book exams (Vs closed book)
Shorter 45 min exams spread out (Vs 2h15 minutes)
Coursework (Vs exam only at the end of y11)

I'm sure lots of state pupils would do better on the 0092 spec, but they won't get that choice because we can't teach it. Then it's been in the news that university admissions consider them equally, when they're totally different.

I'm not against private education, but find it funny that people clearly take the view they are paying to get the results they want (Vs paying to educate) and then try to deny there's any benefit in going through a system that allows sets different sta

I mean, surely a non ofqual validated courses for a profit making system wouldn't design a course for profit making schools that makes life easier for them (to ensure the board gets the money)? And no school would ever make a decision to take on an easier qualification that makes their results look good (to attract parents and get the fees in)?

[LolaSmiles]

*then try to deny there's any benefit in going through a system that allows sets different standards depending on if your parents pay for your education.

It's a bit like running a 10k race but one child gets a nice smooth athletics track and can stop the clock and take a break every km, and the other has to do 10km uphill on a rough surface and has to do it all in one go. Then some argue the time taken to run 10km is comparable and the first child just happens to be a faster runner.

[Manontry]

Dd did IGSE English and there was no coursework. It was a really interesting syllabus which the teachers enjoyed teaching.

[LolaSmiles]

It depends which version they did. The current iGcse Literature that's only able to be taught in UK Schools doesn't have coursework. 0092 spec does and that's what anyone who teaches the current UK only option is being moved to this year, other than November resit.

I don't doubt it's interesting to teach (but then so is the new AQA normal GCSE spec). But your child did the UK only spec for lit they had the option of an extract question or an essay question. Our children HAVE to do a whole text essay or they get capped at roughly a grade 2 for the question. Is that fair?

Look at the 0092 spec and tell me that discrepancy for children is fair.

I have nothing against the iGcse specification. I have an issue with 16 year olds being given a piece of paper that suggests something comparable that isn't.

[LolaSmiles]

English language follows a similar pattern:

The non UK regulated version has speaking and listening and coursework

BUT The UK regulated version still has speaking and listening worth 40 marks (state students on the normal GCSE have to do speaking and listening but it counts for nothing towards their grade)

But the UK regulated version is being replace with a non regulated version from this year:
Following the final examination in November 2019, schools using this syllabus are advised to move to syllabus 0990. Syllabus 0990 will not be regulated by Ofqual.

Look at 0090 and you find the students can have 50% of their grade completed by coursework.

In a nutshell, yet again the current UK Validated one has benefits that no state child can access and then it's being phased out to a non regulated version that's easier.

If these are qualifications to compare kids then they should be comparable.

[Manontry]

I don't know enough about it to compare I'm afraid. The school has fantastic English results at A level and a huge take up which seems to suggest that the igcse is good prep for A level if nothing else. Dd2 got 9s for both Lit and Lang! But it's at A level where the results really matter.

[LolaSmiles]

We get good uptake and a levels and rest results as do many 11-18 state schools. I'm not sure doing iGCSE is better prep (and depending on which version they do it could be worse prep)

It's an amazing achievement for your DC.

I think I find it hard as a teacher to see 16 year olds coming out with apparently comparable grades that actually weren't gained under comparable assessments, especially when those with the ability or willingness to pay can access specifications that give them an advantage and a leg up.

For a child like your DC it's great they got a 9. But take two kids of similar ability in year 10.
One child gets coursework (new iGCSE spec), the other doesn't and has to sit terminal exams for all literature texts.
One child can have the literature text in front of them in an open book exam, the other isn't allowed it because it's closed book.
One of them gets their English language grade by 50% coursework, the other has to sit two exams and one of them is analysing unseen 19th century literary non fiction

Are both children being given a fair and comparable assessment at 16? Not a chance.

As I say, it's the equivalent of telling 2 kids to run 10km, but one gets a nice flat track and can pause the clock to catch their breath and refresh before starting the clock again & the other has to run uphill on a bumpy surface with potholes, they have to do it in one go and can't stop the clock for a break. Then someone looks at the 2 10km times and decides that the first child is the better runner and has more talent and deserves access to an elite running programme because they just happen to be better than child 2.

Nobody would claim child 1 and 2 ran the same race, unless they've got a vested interest in ensuring nobody questions child 1's success.

[BeautifulWintersMorning]

Seems very unequal. Hopefully in future they will be recognised as such.

[Michaelahpurple]

@Lolasmiles. Ds1 and his peers at DS2s school did quite a lot of IGCSEs and they did no coursework in any of them. The lack of course work is why highly academic independent schools adopted IGCSEs some years ago, to avoid the coursework that GCSEs used to require.

CIE english literature book choices were Macbeth, Hard Times and that dreary poetry compilation they all seem to do. Other options included Mansfield Park and My Antonia, so very similar I imagine to gcse.

I imagine that, knowing what Westminster eat al are doing with IGCSEs, this is why universities are happy to accept them.

[LolaSmiles]

BeautifulWintersMorning
I actually like the new iGcse Literature for exams in 2021 onwards.
I just think everyone should be afforded comparable assessments so people know that a child in today's y10 getting an 8 in English is equal whether they do the current GCSE with 100% exam or the iGCSE where 50% of the grade can be coursework. It's fairness for the kids.

Michaelahpurple
It depends which versions they do. I've heard good things about one of the science specs about a year ago.
The examples I've given above are taken from current English specs. The UK only validated one (not equal to normal GCSE but the closest due to exam question choices not available to state kids) ran for a couple of years and is now phased out in favour of one that's nowhere near comparable.

I'm cynical when some top private schools use them. Given state schools pick the boards and specs for their cohorts to maximise results, I can't believe profit making companies would do anything different. The only advantage they have is they can select specifications that are closed to state pupils, which further helps them suggest their children just happen to be more intelligent.

[Manontry]

Dd did no coursework. Why would private schools want easier exams? They don't need easier exams, they have great teaching and smaller class sizes and the majority of kids want to work and are non-disruptive.

[LolaSmiles]

Why would private schools want easier exams? They don't need easier exams, they have great teaching and smaller class sizes and the majority of kids want to work and are non-disruptive.

Because an easier exam makes their results higher (the same reason any school will pick a specification that best suits their cohort). They can then publish higher results, which then can be used to advertise as parents decide it's worth the investment and in turn they make money (and making money is at the heart of any profit making business).

They are doing what any school or business would do, it's just that they have the ability to select courses and specifications that give their children an inherent advantage in assessment because the vast majority of 16 year olds in the UK will never have access to those types of assessment.

I'd be in favour of all schools having to sit comparable assessments at GCSE so that at least everyone knows that a grade has some parity. It's not exactly an unreasonable thing to want.

[Schoolmumm]

Our daughter’s independent obviously didn’t have that approach in mind. No course work for English, just good old fashioned hard work, and end of course exams. Mixed results too, but that was down to having a broader range of abilities, as opposed to making them sit a ‘harder’ option.

[BeautifulWintersMorning]

What about the other advantages Lola mentions? Open book exams (Vs closed book)
Shorter 45 min exams spread out (Vs 2h15 minutes)

[LolaSmiles]

Our local independent (that I'd happily send my child to) sits almost the same specifications as the local excellent state schools.

Acknowledging that some specifications are easier and exams are more broken down (e.g. current validated iGCSE Literature is end of course exam but it's all in smaller exams Vs validated normal GCSE being over 2h / have the option of an extract only question Vs normal GCSE having to do extract and whole text in one) doesn't detract from kids working hard.

Kids can still work hard whilst sitting exams in an assessment context that isn't comparable. The validated version of iGCSE has no coursework, but as I mentioned earlier, the exams are easier and more accessible.

I'm sure lots of our students would do better if they could sit multiple, shorter exams and refresh. But they aren't allowed that option.
I'm sure lots of our students would do better if they could answer questions on an extract only and get high marks. But they aren't allowed to do that either because it's a rubric infringement and they get capped.

Nobody has yet managed to explain to me why such differing assessment options based on state / private sector is fair for the kids when those grades stay with them for life.

[LolaSmiles]

BeautifulWintersMorning
I cross posted with you

The validated version is marginally more comparable but still more chunked in terms of exams being shorter and question choices.

It's interesting that the validated version has been very quick to be withdrawn in favour of the non-validated course which is significantly easier.