Further Maths at GCSE

[EtVoilaBrexit]

Dc1 is in Y10. And needing to decide whether it’s worth doing further maths gcse or not.
Atm, school is saying that maths gcse is enough to do alevel maths (level 8 required though) but not further maths.
They also say that what they are doing in further maths wintbmake any difference in Alevel as the subjects covered are different.

So my question is, if this is the case, why bothering to do further maths? All the bright pupils are going for it so there is the risk hecwill end up will the ones that are not as good and be bored. But...

[HettySorrel]

cake, nobody goes in to teaching focussed on league tables, but it's a sad reality that in a number of schools league tables matter more to the management than the individual student. For individual teachers, there is bias because of this - both conscious and unconscious.

When a person's job (and therefore home, food, DC etc) are at risk if students don't get top grades, it isn't surprising if they start discouraging weaker students. To suggest it is always deliberate is certainly jaded. But to suggest it doesn't happen is equally naive.

[Janleverton]

All of the top set at dd’s school do further maths as an add-on.

5/6 is the cut off for a level but the school would strongly counsel against taking an a level in a subject you didn’t get at least a 6 in, but pref a 7.

[Jaffajuices]

Do not need Further Maths for A Level, my dd has the option, she chose not to as she wanted to master the GCSE. She is now predicted an A* for A Level, I think it depends on how well they know their material from the GCSE rather than just doing more stuff.

[cakeisalwaystheanswer]

We'll have to disagree Noble and I do resent the inference that DD's teacher is putting her down. DD is one of those DCs who have excellent relationships with all her teachers because she works so hard. Her current maths teacher in particular is incredibly kind and the sort of person who went into teaching because they love their subject and wants to spread the love. She has a very warm relationship with DD and she does want the best for her and if DD needed Maths she would 100% help her to achieve her best result.
I appreciate that you work in a school so are probably more jaded but surely we can agree that most teachers are trying to do their best for their pupils. I don't think anyone goes into teaching with the aim of propelling schools up the league tables.

[cantkeepawayforever]

There is some suggestion that DD may do an extra Maths GCSE - haven't had details. Basically syllabus covered, got a good 9 on last year's paper in early Niovember mock, so I think there's a thought that they might as well go for adding some extra content to smooth the transition to AS / A-level [school still does ASs]

[snozzlemaid]

My dd is in year 12 and did further maths GCSE. She got an A in further maths and 8 in her maths GCSE.
She's doing maths A level and has found the background of further maths really helpful with the A level. There are things the rest of her A level class have never done before which she is already competent in doing.
You can also do further maths A level.

[cantkeepawayforever]

Girls tend to lack confidence in their maths abilities. It’s crap when their teachers do too

Have battled this with DD for years.

DS - louder, boy, good at maths in an 'obvious, hands up, speed' way: always regarded by his teachers as 'ooh, yes, able mathematician'.

DD - quiet, girl, good at maths in a 'quiet, unobtrusive, everything 100% in a beautifully-presented maths book' way: always regarded by [male] teacher as 'I suppose she's doing OK'.

Guess which one has sailed through her Maths GCSE mock with one of the 2 or 3 highest marks in the class? Teacher will still not give her anything above an 'OK' effort grade and refuses to update her (lower than DS) GCE prediction because 'well, she doesn't contribute much in class so I'm not sure she is really that confident or good at maths'.

Grrrrrrr

[noblegiraffe]

I’m afraid I don’t rate their opinion if they think a hardworking and conscientious student in the top 3% of the population for GCSE maths isn’t capable of an A*/A at A-level.

Girls tend to lack confidence in their maths abilities. It’s crap when their teachers do too.

[cakeisalwaystheanswer]

The kids who missed their A level Maths grade went to a range of schools, state and private and the local 6th form college which is excellent; most of them were also tutored. A common comment from them is that Maths was the subject they devoted the most study hours to and got the worst grade for.
A level maths is hard and a B is a realistic aim for DD from her Maths teachers who have worked hard with her over the last 5 years and know her well. I know you like to argue on MN Noble but you have never met DD you have no idea of her inate ability, work rate etc so I will stick with the opinion of those who do.

[noblegiraffe]

realistically DD would be looking at getting a B at best for A level Maths

Where on earth are you getting this crap from? 42.2% of entries got A/A at Maths last year, and if you assume that every candidate who took Further Maths got one, that still leaves twenty five thousand students who took Maths but not Further Maths who got an A/A.

That you know a load of students resitting maths because they missed their uni offers despite getting A* at GCSE suggests that their sixth form maths teaching is a bit shit, not that good grades at Maths A-level are simply unobtainable.

[cakeisalwaystheanswer]

DD is very focused and hardworking and is predicted a 9 for Maths at GCSE. She is not a natural mathematician and it would all be achieved by very hard work.With FM pupils dominating the A grade for A level Maths, and then the wannabe Drs etc working extremely hard for their A grades, realistically DD would be looking at getting a B at best for A level Maths. This can easily slip to a C or even a D. Sitting an easier subject where her best potential outcome is an A which can slip 2 grades to a very useful B is a much more sensible option for her.

She want to study a specific subject at uni which is why she went to the Exeter open day. They have made it very clear that other than the relevant subject they do not care what her A level subjects are. Once she has her degree no-one will be interested in her A level subjects, its a very specific career degree and doesn't need Maths.

Maths is hard. DS has lots of friends resitting this year because despite working hard they missed their uni offers. They all had A*s at GCSE. Ditto Sciences are hard and sat by the brightest and don't start me on languages. So if A levels subjects are being treated equally why sit them?

[noblegiraffe]

My school accepts a 6 for A-level maths which I think is too low, but a 7 would be reasonable. One of my sixth formers last year who got an A at GCSE got an A at A-level so a requirement that prevented him from taking it would have been too stringent.

There is a further maths A-level which you should take if you want to take maths, or a maths-heavy degree. It’s nothing to do with further maths GCSE.

Further/Additional maths in Y11 are nice to haves, but not totally necessary for A-level maths.

[EtVoilaBrexit]

Tbf our local college has already said that a level 8 is somehow the minimum if you want to do Alevel maths wo too much struggle...

Interesting discussion about how FM can make a difference too.

Can I ask, if you look a bit further afield, is there a Further Maths Alevel and do you need Further Maths GCSE to do it? Is there any point to do a Further Maths Alevel?

[AChickenCalledKorma]

Hear hear, Noble. As a person who sifts job applications, I'm much more likely to interview someone with a C in A-level maths than an A in A-level photography. And I'm deeply disturbed by all the stories I have of schools who are telling students that getting high grades in minority subjects is better for them, when actually it's just better for the league tables.

[noblegiraffe]

The idea that a kid who got a ‘low’ 9 should avoid A-level maths because an A in photography would make it easier to get into Exeter is plain bonkers.

A kid who gets a 9 in GCSE maths is one of the very brightest. If the school can’t get that kid to a top grade at A-level then that doesn’t bode well for their sixth form teaching skills.

Maths A-level is the most popular A-level. It’s a requirement for pretty much all the degrees which lead to the best paying graduate jobs. Research shows that it boosts your lifetime earning potential - the only A-level to do so.

Putting kids off it who would be perfectly capable of doing it actually angers me, especially if they are female. Girls are already put off maths for stupid reasons and schools shouldn’t be adding to that.

[cakeisalwaystheanswer]

Well that's one way of seeing it Noble but maybe they are actually just trying to get the best results for their pupils so that they can get into the unis they want to. I know a lot of cross parents who's DCs struggled through Maths and Science A levels that they didn't need and missed their uni offers when they could have taken easier options.

I know Maths isn't difficult for you and you teach it but it is comparatively a difficult A level. The top grades are dominated by pupils taking FM, the wannabe engineers and Drs etc. i.e. the very brightest. If a uni like Exeter is just looking at grades regardless of the subject because they think that "pupils choose what subjects to sit because they are good at them and enjoy them", then a hard worked for C at A level maths is seen as inferior to an A at Photography or Dance. So surely, if a pupil has struggled with the algebraic content of GCSE maths then it is better for them to pursue a subject that they have a better chance of getting a decent grade in.

[noblegiraffe]

The Maths dept are now advising anyone who didn't get a high 9 to think carefully about taking maths as an A level.

Blimey, there speaks a school interested only in protecting its A-level results.

[cakeisalwaystheanswer]

Michaela - DD's school, which is selectiveish but a lot less academic than either of those schools, also thought about stopping Add Maths but kept it at the last minute for the top 2 sets. They also swapped from IGCSE to the new GCSE and are very surprised at how many pupils are getting top grades. It seems ridiculous for a school like W to have given up the challenge of Add Maths for what, according to the upturn in results, looks like on results an easier exam.

[BewareOfDragons]

My oldest is only in Y9, but is already expecting to be put forward for the Additional Maths. My understanding is the school will only allow its top maths students to sit it anyway.

[AChickenCalledKorma]

Further Maths A level may well be a requirement for some maths degrees. Further Maths GCSE isn't a requirement on any course I've looked at recently. Lots and lots of schools don't offer anything additional to Maths at GCSE.

[Michaelahpurple]

Neither of the two schools I know best -Eton and Westminster - offer further maths at all. Westminster used to, but stopped when the maths GCSEs changed. Perhaps they will introduce it as things settle. Maths is I think the most popular A level there so it can’t be obligatory. Perhaps they just teach extension but don’t examine it if you see what I mean

[Dimetrodon]

If you want to study for a maths degree then further maths GCSE and therefore A level is standard requirement for top universities. FM is also looked on very favourably if you are interested in engineering degrees. Some schools have limited places for FM A level. Ask them how many take A level FM.

[cakeisalwaystheanswer]

Winterwonderland - you are echoing the Maths dept advice. Apparently if you struggled with the algebra type questions at the end of the paper then the chances are you would struggle at A level so think carefully about whether or not it's right for you.

It does seem bloody ridiculous telling a DC with a 9 in Maths that they may struggle at A level.

[Winterwonderland12]

But yes, OCR Add Maths seems a great introduction to A level Maths.

[Winterwonderland12]

I was also surprised how many mistakes you could make and still get a 9 in this summer's Maths GCSE exam. The last few questions were very difficult and it seems you didn't need their marks to get the top grade, a 9!

Whilst I am happy for my dd (who got a 9), it's not really differentiating between her and those kids who do manage to do all of most of the questions. Maybe we need s grade 10 for the truly top Mathematicians!