Getting to Medical or Law school

[bobnl]

Friends,
I am new to UK school system. I have been reading/asking questions about Secondary schools in the UK.
Somehow I have a feeling that, if a kid wants to get into Medical or law school, he/she should go to Grammar school or Independent school. In my view, kids from comprehensive state school have very little chances of becoming a lawyer or doctor.
Is that true?
Can you please share your experience?

Thank you

[BubblesBuddy]

In some areas of Bucks, the 11 plus pass rate is 20%. The grammar school rolls are made up from children from Milton Keynes. Obviously Bucks is very different from a standard local authority. However, there are excellent comprehensives all over the country and somethat are not!

I find it really odd that people think grammar school pupils are coached and somehow do better because of their parents. Where there are only comprehensives, the ambitious parent is alive and kicking in these schools too! There are a couple of excellent secondary moderns in Bucks and transfer to a grammar is always possible for 6th form.

Very few comprehensives out perform Grammars.

[MinisWin]

I’m the product of state education through and through (and not even a particularly good school, and definitely not a privileged background) - I’m a doctor. As are at least 2 other people from my small school year - only 45ish stayed on for 6th year, and I can also think of a lawyer, as well as a few teachers, a PHD level biochemist, several engineers and a couple of city high flyers.

[titchy]

The other day, I was talking to someone about Medical School Interview, he said, preference is given to kids from a wealthy background, kids from doctor parents, kids from a rich neighborhood like oxford etc..

Where do these people come from?

If anything a non-wealthy state school background is preferred. Most medics HATE kids with doctor parents...

[Jon66]

State school kid here = qualified as a solicitor ten years ago.

[Sailorjerrycherry]

My DP is a surgeon. He went to state school (and not one known as being outstanding or whatever - run of the mill state school!), as did most of his friends from his Uni days who are in the same field.

The person you were talking to is talking largely nonsense.

[bobnl]

All,
Thank you so much for such valuable information sharing. Now I am thinking of skipping Grammar school option and settling down in a good comprehensive secondary school area. I don’t want to put pressure on my kids to prepare for 11+, they are kids, let them enjoy their childhood.

A question to PalePinkSwan/Haffdonga/thisagain - Can you please let me know the school name where your kids went? That will help me to find good comprehensive..

[bobnl]

All,
Thank you so much for such valuable information sharing. Now I am thinking of skipping Grammar school option and settling down in a good comprehensive school area. I don’t want to put pressure on my kids for the 11+, they are kids, let them enjoy their childhood.

A question to PalePinkSwan/Haffdonga/thisagain - Can you please let me know the school name where your kids went? That will help me to find good comprehensive..

[paddlingwhenIshouldbeworking]

This is far far off the mark.

I went to a comprehensive in the south east and a good non-hooray university in the north. DH also went to a comp. We both have law degrees (although ultimately I did something completely different). We do not move in rarified circles. Both of us are still in touch with a lot of our 6th form an uni friends who mostly now successful professionals including solicitors (one extremely senior partner in City firm), a few doctors, one publisher and several accountants. And then there's loads of very happy people working as lots of other things in all manner of professions in the UK and overseas, running their own businesses etc. The majority also send their children to comprehensives - only a couple of grammar and independents but I admit there has been a rush to make sure people live close to good comprehensives.

The assertion just doesn't make sense at all.

[paddlingwhenIshouldbeworking]

Also, why the focus on law and medicine? Amongst our professional friends, with one exception, the doctors and solicitors do not stand out as being particularly more well off, if that is one of the aims. Those living the most comfortable lives are those who went into finance or started their own business. We live in London and house prices mean our lawyer and doctor friends (including ourselves) live in very average houses and are mostly sending our children to state schools.

[TeenTimesTwo]

Hampshire has a number of high achieving comprehensive schools. They only go up to GCSEs and then there are separate very large 6th form colleges.

[titchy]

Have your kids started secondary? Or are Law / Medicine your aspirations?

[annandale]

It's not true. However there is a kernel of not-lying in it.

I believe (no links to back it up) that barristers and judges are still disproportionately likely to have an Oxford or Cambridge degree, and disproportionate numbers of Oxford and Cambridge students were at independent or grammar schools. This is partly about academic achievement, partly because barristers are self employed and it's easier to put food on the table in the early years if you have a richer family to help out, and partly because people tend to recruit others like themselves.

[SunburstsOrMarbleHalls]

Medical and Law degrees in the UK are completed at universities that have faculties of medicine/law within them.

Obviously students are required to achieve (or very nearly achieve) certain academic entrance requirements there are also other non academic requirements that a candidate may need to fulfill especially with medicine.

Some top universities use a contextual data system in their applications, so an applicant who is predicted to meet the entry requirements but attends a school that performs below national average or lives in a low socio economic area is "flagged" their application is highlighted as they are recognised as performing strongly in less advantaged circumstances This of course does not guarantee an offer.

On a personal note my DD attended a grammar school and is a law student at a highly rated university and most of her friends went to comprehensive or secondary modern schools but they are definitely outnumbered by privately educated students.

[HaroldsSoCalledBluetits]

Three quarters of judges and QCs went to private schools. 50% of partners in the top London firms likewise. 55% of solicitors went to Oxford or Cambridge, both of which have a disproportionate number of students from private schools. I'm afraid that saying "my daughter studies law and she went to a comprehensive" doesn't alter that.

[HaroldsSoCalledBluetits]

Oh yeah and 61% of medical students were privately educated.

[SunburstsOrMarbleHalls]

HaroldsSoCalledBluetits I absolutely agree with you. My daughter didn't go to comprehensive school and as I said there are a higher number of privately educated students in her university.

[HaroldsSoCalledBluetits]

Oh I know you do 😁. Your daughter's experience reflects the statistics. I was more addressing the two pages' worth of people giving their personal family circumstances as evidence of the opposite being true. A private education cements privilege - of course it does. No one would bother paying for one if it didn't and it's misleading the OP to pretend that Kelly from Dagenham Comp has the same chance of becoming a QC or a consultant heart surgeon as Francesca from Cheltenham Ladies College.

[SunburstsOrMarbleHalls]

I totally misunderstood your previous post Harolds

In fact DD and her friends have opted for corporate law and the only law students that have applied for the bar exam are from quite wealthy families.

Also many of the top law firms (magic and silver circle) are at Oxbridge and other "top tier" unis throughout the year sponsoring all kinds of social events and workshops so they can recruit future lawyers.

The worst story DD has told me that made me feel sick to my stomach is a top law firm who had a workshop at their London office and an associate said we have an Oxford area, a Cambridge area and then there is a r**d area for the others. Stories like this prove that elitism is disgustingly still openly practiced today.

[PettsWoodParadise]

I work in a top tier law firm in a support capacity. Many firms are making major efforts to give advantages to those who had parents who didn't go to university, to students who didn't go to the top ten list of law schools that they used to solely pick from etc. But many firms still have a way to go. Some of the old guard who mostly came from the top few law schools do find the shift hard to deal with but are often pleasantly surprised by the talent pool and have generally warmed to the idea, but it still goes that it will take a while for the balance to change so references to a lot being from Oxbridge will hold true but for the older lawyers.

Having a law degree isn't a silver bullet Many firms now like students who've studied another subject and then covert to law, tech is a top skill at the moment with AI etc. Top corporate law (earnings in hundreds of thousands of pounds to millions) and high street law (small tens of thousands of pounds) are a world apart.

For medical, a lot of girls at DD's grammar go on to medical school but one of the pre-requisites is demonstrating an understanding of the rigours of the course and industry, substantial work experience etc, sometimes these opportunities to do so come most easily to those who have family who practice medicine.

OP if you are now only looking at secondary schools how do you know your DC wants to follow either of these career paths? Find a good school that is the right fit for them and support them in their interests and you can't go far wrong.

[titchy]

Oh yeah and 61% of medical students were privately educated.

Sorry that's bollocks. Source?

[titchy]

And there is only one higher education institution in the UK which has more privately educated kids than state educated. ALL the rest are majority state. Including Oxbridge.

[UserInfinityplus1]

Not true at all. I went to a comprehensive school albeit a very good one and about half of my cohort went on to become professionals in medicine, law, dentistry, chartered accountants and academics.

[Xenia]

Also the supposed Oxford, Camb and other division at the law day is not the same as division by private school of course. Plenty of children get into oxbridge from Comps and as Oxbridge is harder to get into those careers which want the people with the best exam results are rightly elitist and that is a really good thing - the cream of the comps as well as the grammars surely? You don't want someone who never learned bits of the science course to be cutting you open in the operating theatre.

However yes in my view it can help to go to one of the better schools where most pupils go on to higher paid jobs as teenagers tend to be influenced by their friends as they get older and if all friends are ambitious it rubs off. I even notice it at univesrity - the influence of peers over parents.

[HaroldsSoCalledBluetits]

It really isn't bollocks.

www.businessinsider.com/most-uk-journalists-doctors-barristers-private-schools-2017-7?r=UK&IR=T

[HaroldsSoCalledBluetits]

www.theguardian.com/education/2016/feb/24/privately-educated-elite-continues-to-take-top-jobs-finds-survey