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Secondary education

Class sizes at top London independent schools

42 replies

jeanne16 · 16/03/2016 14:04

Anyone know what these really are? I have heard rumours of class sizes of 28 in the lower years at LEH. Is that true? If so, that is very close to state school class sizes.

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lizzytee · 16/03/2016 19:11

At the local independents - 20-25 at primary is standard.

In our urban, non-faith primary school - 25-30. DD1 (y5) is in a 20 child class from next term through to end of y6. Funnily enough friends with kids at the former seem deaf when this is mentioned.

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AnotherNewt · 16/03/2016 19:23

OP: you posted in 'secondary' - is there a specific age group you're interested in?

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jeanne16 · 16/03/2016 21:21

I was thinking of secondary school. I had heard that classes of 28 were common in some independent schools and I am quite shocked by that. It seems to me that some of these schools are relying so much on attracting very able pupils, thereby achieving great results. I just wonder where the 'added value' is.

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agapanthii · 16/03/2016 23:37

27 and 24 in my dd's forms at LEH. But classes often smaller than a form class. Eg 4 form entry in year group but 5 classes or sets for Maths , so that class is smaller iyswim.

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ChalkHearts · 17/03/2016 05:31

Wow! I'm amazed.

Like others here my secondary state school has classes of 23. Their junior school also had classes of 23.

But, yes, there is a wide ability spread and their are pupils with SEN and behaviour problems.

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Mominatrix · 17/03/2016 06:26

I am surprised at the shock. In early early at private schools, class sizes tend to be very small. My DS had a class of 12 in Reception with one teacher and one dedicated TA at their non-selective schools. By the time they were in Year 2, it was 17. Both children are in very selective schools now and class sizes increase. DS1 is in the last 2 years of prep and classes are 24 - it would not bother me if they added a few more in each class at the senior level. When a school has selection criteria where every child is very able and yet they still narrowly set after this, larger class sizes (still less than 30) is fine.

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AnotherNewt · 17/03/2016 06:35

"It seems to me that some of these schools are relying so much on attracting very able pupils, thereby achieving great results. I just wonder where the 'added value' is."

In the sense that 'added value' is used of state schools, it's impossible to say.

The differences between London secondaries are very small and I think you are totally right that academic reputation is almost entirely down to selectivity at 11, 13 and 16. A clever child would come out of any of them with strings of A*/A. So what is being chosen is the environment and ethos where that takes place.

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Namehanger · 17/03/2016 06:36

My boys private secondary have classes of 15. It is non selective and a reasonable spread of abilities. Personally I think the school could have a few more in the class.

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EricNorthmanSucks · 17/03/2016 06:54

OP 'added value' is completely subjective IMVHO.

The very parameters on which state schools measure VA are pretty basic ( a more nuanced approach would be extremely hard to implement on a macro level).

The most valuable thing about independent school is choice. you the parent can decide what is valuable and (all things being equal) choose a school in line with what you value.

The class sizes have been a minuscule part of the things I've valued about my children's education ( though that's not to say they had no impact).

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Missinglalaland · 17/03/2016 07:41

My DD1 goes to CLSG. Her class sizes are 25. Our local comp is more like 20/22.

All the girls at CLSG seem to be very able and they are whizzing through the work. DD1 says that she learns something everyday. My DH and I are very satisfied with the teaching and with the curriculum.

Like CLSG, the comp only sets for maths starting in year 8. There is a large ability spread at the comp. There are half the languages to choose from, no triple science, and we weren't as impressed with the teaching staff when we went to the open evening.

For us, class size, within reason, has little to do with it. It's down to strength of cohort, curriculum offered, and, most of all, quality of teachers (we judged this by talking with teachers directly, were they sharp? switched on? keen on their subject? And by their educational CVs.)

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RalphSteadmansEye · 17/03/2016 08:20

Ds's school delivers an extra half hour per day of teaching, so ten hours a month. That's the reason for the extra holidays.

Wrt class sizes: none are higher than 24 and those are top sets. Middle sets are more like 15-20 and bottom sets are 6-12. GCSE option groups can be as small as 6 and A level groups as small as 3.

In the local comps (dh and I both work in them), top sets are 35 ish, middle sets 30 and core subject bottom sets in exam years can be 6-10. GCSE groups would not run with such small numbers, nor A level.

I think the examples above with state schools with classes of only 24 in top sets are likely to be mostly London comps, where the funding is twice the rest of the country, or very small undersubscribed rural schools.

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whatwouldrondo · 17/03/2016 08:37

jeanne I am sure that in terms of university destinations my DDs would have done as well in a local outstanding comprehensive state as in their private school, though possibly not quite as well in terms of grades. That is based on the discussion of the experience of their peers, both in outstanding state comprehensives, albeit with lower levels of social deprivation than average, and private. Class sizes are similar, around 25 in both, but generally behaviour problems in mixed ability state classrooms does mean that private school teachers can take the pupils through the curriculum more quickly and then focus on developing the skills which will get them the extra grades. But the university admissions system, especially Oxbridge, is actually quite effective at levelling the playing field where it is just a matter of the odd grade difference between pupils of equal ability, aspiration and motivation.

However we didn't have the choice of a place at a good state school. That is a common issue in the vicinity of LEH - the state school next door was handed to a Swedish sponsor some years ago which implemented it's educational methods in the face of parental, teacher and OFSTED cynicism and having not succeeded in achieving adequate improvement are now handing the school over to a multi academy trust with the local outstanding schools. The school actually highlighted a mentoring scheme with LEH and Hampton sixth form pupils coming in to mentor GCSE pupils in their improvement plan review as having helped mitigate problems with the recruitment and retention of Maths teachers which was impacting the GCSE years. I am quite sure that that is why the proportion of pupils educated privately in Richmond is at 30% way above the national average and the highest of any outer London borough and that anxious parents of Year 5s and 6s are resorting to tutoring on a level not otherwise seen outside Asia.

And we didn't in any case chose schools because we thought it would get them to a better university. We helped them chose the school where they would be able to get a place in which they felt they would be happy and inspired to learn. In the vicinity of LEH there are private schools like St Catherine's which offer a more nurturing environment with smaller class sizes which is exactly what some families are looking for. For my DDs though it was too small and too mollycoddling, they wanted the challenge and buzz of a school like LEH. Frankly we were never under any illusions that every teacher would be inspiringly effective, some were, others relied on the ability and motivation of the pupils, and some couldn't cope with clever disruptive pupils, but in the latter case the parents were queueing up at the door to complain and in dysfunctional years even LEH will lose pupils and class sizes will go down. As other have said there is so much more to the environment a school provides for the development of individuals than just class sizes.

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BoboChic · 17/03/2016 08:38

I agree with Missinglalaland - quality of teachers is the killer app worth paying for. A selective school with fairly homogenous class groups can work very well with large classes.

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EricNorthmanSucks · 17/03/2016 09:46

As my DC near the end of their school career (they're in y12) I can see that had they gone to a very good state school, their grades would probably not have been outlandishly worse and the types of courses and universities effectively available to them would also have been in the same ball park (though some of our more unusual considerations would have been a bugger to sort out in state school).

But the environment is what I have paid for.

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MyLifeisaboxofwormgears · 17/03/2016 09:53

In DD's school they are split into ability groups for all subjects so she is rarely in a group with more than 12 in it. Some subject groups consist of 5 pupils!

Again, I have paid for the environment and quality of teachers.

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SAHDthatsall · 17/03/2016 10:43

Didn't particularly consider class sizes nor exam results of the school as some seem to focus on! Some even look at A level results which are so far away and as many schools filter out weak performers at GCSE and bring in a new high performing cohort that measure is even less relevant.

Reasons we pay for a independent school rather than the 'outstanding' state down the road that I hear some people move house to be near:

  • possibility of not getting into that state school due to too many people and a shit govt
  • disruption of kids in state schools affecting DS
  • focus in state school of catering for those less able
  • state school not challenging the brighter ones
  • the speed at which they are teaching subjects and how this allows for longer holidays
  • the way they will look at individuals near exam time (say GCSE) and seriously help them achieve higher grades with extra work during the week and at weekends
  • the whole ethos and environment of the independent
  • the sports facilities of the independent
  • the sports fixtures of the independent - so far 20+ football matches and 10 cricket matches scheduled cf
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SAHDthatsall · 17/03/2016 10:47
  • Not having to put up with the shit prescribed by the government for state school curricula (except final exams of course)
  • Not having to put up with this sort of shit:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/secondary/2594203-gelosia-multiplication
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