Assisted places at private school

[BrieAndChilli]

DS1 is in year 4 so were are starting to think about secondary school. He currently attends the best primary school in the county (state) it is a small village school and they have been brilliant with him.
He is very acedemically able. He started reception with a reading age of 14 years as an example.
Our 2 local secondary schools unfortunately aren't more than barely average, and as we are in Wales there are no grammar schools/11+ etc so that's not an option either.
A local private school that has very good results offers assisted places and bursaries - to be honest we couldn't afford to pay more than a token amount, would it be worth trying to get a 100% assisted place or do such things not exist? Is it worth approaching the school or will they just laugh us off the premises??

[M48294Y]

Op, you've got a school in mind? Surely you need to ask them not Mumsnet?

[WombatChocolate]

Lurked, I was just reporting on the experiences I have heard from a number of people - they were exactly as I said - they explained their financial position to the bursar and were encouraged to apply, but in all cases, the bursary offered wasn't sufficient to allow them to go.

Brie....it may well be that your income after fees wouldn't be enough to live on. That is the situation that most people find themselves in and why they don't attend independent schools.

Schools offering bursaries do look at income levels and offer on a sliding scale. However, that sliding scale doesn't mean it will be affordable for all who fall within the bursary income range. Schools do want to offer bursaries, but as has been said, the demands on the pot are so high they can't make it affordable for all who pass the exam, only a bit more within reach. And for most, a bit more within reach still means it is out of reach.

To give an example of one of the families I was referring to, they had an income of £43k and had 3 children. The school fees would have been £12k and they were offered a 50% bursary, after they told the school the original 35% offered simply wasn't enough. 50% was a generous bursary offer....but they couldn't afford £6k and in fact couldn't have paid any more than £600. The school couldn't offer more, so the boy went to the state school and is doing well.

My point is simply that most schools won't give bursaries of a big enough % to people to make the fees affordable, unless their incomes are below that ££18k level mentioned earlier.....and most will only be able to afford perhaps 1 bursary on that scale. It is when your income is somewhere between that £18k and whatever the upper limit is (around £55k round here) that people often find they can get some kind of bursary offer, but it isn't enough because they would still need to cover more than they can afford.

[Lurkedforever1]

Op- as gruach said it's really the bursar you need to speak to. I applied for bursaries for dd, and in each case they took everything into account, from an allowance to provide for any other children, to rent and assets.

wombat my point entirely. They can afford it if it is what they truly want. Lots of people live on 18-20k a year, thus if private school is truly a priority, there is no reason higher earners can't scale themselves back and live on that too. They may not want private school enough to be willing to, but that doesn't mean the bursary system is at fault.

[happygardening]

No I don't not month in month out.
We're not mega wealthy compared to many of the parents at DS2's school, we pay fees out of our monthly income, we've been doing this now for at least 12 years the end is now in site we've only two more terms to go, (crack open the bottle of champagne smiley). Its our choice and I ask for no sympathy but at times it's been a bloody struggle and an emotional drain on us as well as a financial one, mortgage school fees council tax life insurance petrol (we too are rural) are the same amount month in month out you can't reduce them one month if the unexpected comes in, also all for us have equal priority that's our choice. It'll will be a relief when it's all over. It's also the unexpected bills that cause the trouble, dentists, a broken appliance e.g.washing machine/boiler, a vets bill or a broken down car or even better all four in the same month and we have have lots more left over than that after we've paid the fees.
IMO opinion in your position you have to absolutely believe 100%
that it's money well spent. It doesn't actually matter if other people think your nuts paying for education, it's what you think that matters and you must get what your paying for whether it be a golf course, an Olympic rowing lake, smaller classes, or a large non examined curriculum. As soon as you stop believing yoir getting what ever it is then suddenly it becomes a real burden. I also have to say that paying doesn't always mean better, that schools can say anything on their websites/open days, that better exam results aren't guaranteed, neither is better teaching or better behaved pupils and and that Im not completely convinced that smaller classes are the be all and end all. No where, even a certain school off the M4 is perfect, and that at every school however good there will be children who are not thriving, and there will be schools that many consider to be undesirable where children are thriving.
For me super bright children need to be mentally challenged in lessons on a daily basis, be educated with others like themselves but also I think they need a very broad intellectually challenging curriculum. IMO the super selective are in the best position to do this and so we come back to my point about for us it's money well spent.

[NewLife4Me]

I think you should go for it and see, nothing ventured nothing gained.
What was important to us was that the ethos of the statements about financial support and access to all were carried throughout the school.

It's a waste of time a school offering 100% bursaries to support those who are less well off if they have expensive excursions, uniform you need a second mortgage for, kids with everything their little hearts desire, and lots of rich people who look down their noses at you.
Not that I think all rich people do this, of course they don't.

We were very pleasantly surprised and it has worked out well for us and dd is about to start her second term now.
The school is one on it's own so not really comparable but I write as a parent who went for the financial support, with a lower family income than yourselves and it worked.

[WombatChocolate]

But Lurked, there are certainly people who earn within £18-£55k and who could NOT afford independent school, even if they scaled back and received a modest bursary. For many the sums still won't add up.
So, going back to our friends who would have had to find £6k for fees - the £43k they earned was spent each year - not on luxuries, but paying the rent on their 3 bedroomed house in the south-east (would be in the region of £1.8k per month - nothing luxurious or large, or in a flashy area - just a small 3 bed terrace, with 2 of the kids sharing a bedroom) their bills, and food etc. They had one camping type holiday in the UK per year. Both worked. I guess they could have 'scaled back' and cut out their camping trip and yes it might have been possible to save a few hundred.....but not £6k......and of course there were the other children to think about too.

I am not saying that the school was required to offer them more or enough for them to afford the fees. After they had applied and received their bursary offer, they were in the same position as most other people - they simply couldn't afford independent education, even if they cut everything back.

My point is that websites and Bursars don't always make clear how small. Bursary may well be in reality. People see the mention of 100% bursary and think they might get one. Many people cannot afford much towards fees ....yes,they could cut back a bit and contribute something (and many people are willing to make huge sacrifices) but these are often not enough. They still can't afford it.

I do agree though, that there are also lots of people who have have household incomes which are above the average, and who live reasonably comfortable lives, and fancy the idea of an independent education. Some of those have an adult who stays at home,who could be in work, or have holidays etc etc and don't really want to change their lifestyle, but fancy a handout towards fees. I agree that those on bursaries should be expected to make cut-backs. It is why most bursary policies list things which would not be considered acceptable for those in receipt of bursaries; frequent new cars, frequent holidays or holidays abroad, second home ownership, significant home improvements. Bursary policies also usually say that both adults would be expected to work and equity within property to be freed up to contribute towards fees. This all seems correct - a bursary isn't a subsidy for a middle class lifestyle. Lots of people who pay full fees go without those luxuries to pay the fees,many so should those who want financial help. However, even once all those things have been removed and cut-backs have been made,even to the bone, many will find a bursary is still insufficient to allow them to afford to attend.

[happygardening]

I once listened to a bursar talk at a school open day he said he wasn't against a cheap annual holiday every year, after all he wasn't trying to kill the parents off, reliable new(ish) average family cars, or some equity in an average property, realistically very common when property prices are going up, paying into a pension/life insurance he thought was perfectly acceptable and in fact should be encouraged. But he said he struggled when parents turned up in brand new range rovers, tanned from a recent holiday to an exotic location, with skiing holiday booked in the winter, two homes one with 8 bedrooms and then asked for financial help because they were struggling to pay the fees. Apparently it wasn't uncommon.

[Want2bSupermum]

I went to a boarding school that was super selective. They had assistance for those who couldn't afford the amounts the assisted places scheme didn't cover as the school didn't want to bankrupt the parents or take away resources from the other children.

Call the bursar and speak to them. The first thing I would do is have them waive the fees to apply. Also, Monmouth is a good school in terms of assistance BUT it isn't the best academically. I would be looking at the super selective boys schools such as Eton, Harrow and Winchester. They start at 13 so I would be speaking to them about planning how to ready him for their entrance exams.

[happygardening]

Want2be I completely agree about Eton Winchester etc and it's already been suggested above but the OP is not keen on boarding for her DS and competition for places is fierce so the OP would need a fall back who also have generous bursaries.

[Lurkedforever1]

I understand what you mean wombat. I just disagree, because there will be other families in that same area living on 18k, so it is possible if people want it enough. Otherwise, if a child like your friends receives 12k (or whatever amount) that's a place that can't be given to a child whose parents are already living on 18k. I understand that many may not feel it's remotely worth it, but it is fair.

I will add though that in my experience bursars were upfront, happy to give ball park figures in terms of their sliding scale and what they look at, and then post exam/ interview when they'd seen figures say accurately what any possible bursary would be, before offer day. And given the competition for bursaries, I can't see it would be at all practical to give accurate figures to every applicant prior to admission procedures.

[BabyGanoush]

Ask the bursars of the schools

You have nothing to lose by asking

[disquisitiones]

At my DC's school no bursary help is available for those earning over 60k (gross), even for those wanting to send 2+ children to the school. From 60k gross it would be hard to get much more than 42k net (and that's assuming two incomes with no pension contributions etc). Fees and expenses for 2 children would be 30k (even with sibling discount), leaving 12k for a family of four to live on. This would be pretty much impossible even if the family owned their own home, so no such family could afford to send both children to the school. Even sending one child would be a big proportional of net income in this case, particularly for a family in the SE where rent on a modest 2 bed home could easily be 1k per month.

Most families (even those on comfortable incomes such as 60k) simply cannot afford to send their children to private schools.

[derektheladyhamster]

We earn a similar amount and have a 65% bursery. This is from a school with a large bursery pot. Just to give you some idea of figures you could be looking at. This is a boarding school though

[NoTimeLikeSnowTime]

I imagine it is definitely worth talking to them. I went to Monmouth girls many many moons ago, and there were certainly girls there on 100% scholarships. As far as I know both schools really still pride themselves on academic excellence.

Assuming things haven't changed wildly since I was there, I would also say that while many families are obviously high earners, there were a lot of fairly 'normal' kids in that catchment, including lots from families with strong farming connections etc, so it is certainly not a Range Rovers and holidays in St Barts kind of demographic.

[Teddingtonmum1]

We are on a 65% bursary , it was originally 55% and just out of reach , I went back and explained the situation and it was increased. Luckily it's just me & my son, so there's just me at home. My fees take about 40% of my income, there is no spare cash, as my son boards, I sold up and moved out of London, to cut my outgoing to be able to afford it. I think the bursers wants to see that all efforts are being made to contribute. My niece got 100% bursary for St. Paul's no I'm not jealous much 😳

[Knowledgablebursaryadvise]

"Equity to be freed up"
This is not our experience, we have some equity in our property initially just under 25% when we bought it with some money we inherited two years ago but we're in the SE property prices are rising rapidly so we've now got over 40%. We have not been asked to release it.
Bursary aren't stupid they know that most lenders expect a 20-25% deposit and that many cant simple crank up their mortgages every year to pay more towards school fees because their houses are increasing in value all the time. It's IME more to do with the size and value of you property, we live in an average costing average three bedroom house. Just to add we are older than some parents and have a mortgage of only 17 years and therefore quite high repayments so we couldn't afford to increase significantly it to release equity.

[catslife]

The OP lives in a rented house so there is no equity issue here.
Your figures only show that full fees would be nearly impossible - you need to work out what percentage would be possible. 25% bursary (and 25% scholarship) would still give residual income of £1000 pcm which looks manageable.
As others have said though you do need to check with the bursar about the following: is it gross or net income that is taken into account?
how are fees likely to rise with inflation in the next few years?
does the income threshold for bursaries get raised each year to compensate for the above?
is it possible for a child to have both an academic scholarship and a bursary?
does the bursary say the same every year or is it reviewed annually?
and finally are fees paid termly or monthly?

[bojorojo]

I have a suspicion that some schools, who offer very little (or nothing) in the way of scholarship fee reduction, will offer more generous bursaries for children who are scholars and the school really wants them. Also, schools give bursaries to children already on roll whose parents fall on hard times - if the school wants to keep the child in the school. Sometimes they are not bothered: a Dad went to prison for a significant financial crime in the school where we were. Mum got no help and child had to leave. I also know of one who got a bursary after the parents divorced and the Dad refused to keep paying. Not entirely sure this was fair but it does show schools have preferences for their money. I would agree that web site info rarely shows the full picture.

[NewLife4Me]

My dd school only look at income and fees are paid on a sliding scale.
They don't care how many assets you have, how many homes, who works and who doesn't, what or how many cars you have, or if you have savings or equity in your home.
They do make allowances for other dependant siblings though.

All schools are different and operate in different ways.
Some have offers of financial assistance from private investors or bequeths?

[Blue14]

no harm is asking, but you are making it sound like you can't differentiate between academic ability and pathology, which isn't going to put either you or your child in a good light.

[Squashybanana]

Blue, aspergers isn't pathological.

[Blue14]

yes it is

[Squashybanana]

Sigh. What a shame to be so ignorant.
It's pathological in the same way that homosexuality is pathological. Ie different, not inferior, not broken, not wrong, just different and conferring some advantages and some vulnerabilities.
Did you mean to be so offensive?

[Blue14]

I find it offensive when people try and pretend that my wonderful, impaired, struggling ASD children are just "different" and in fact not disabled at all.

[Squashybanana]

And I find it offensive when people claim that my wonderful quirky sometimes struggling sometimes amazing sspergers children are diseased.