School admissions help

[Mumofmanychores]

I have recently moved area and borough although not to far from previous house. My dc is currently at an independent school and due to various reasons we are not in a position to keep them there after July. We have a fantastic school where we live 0.7 miles which we would have been well in catchment if we applied during the normal round.

My reasons for applying is because for 1 we can no longer afford to keep him in private and is currently in yr9 so important to be settled into a school gcse kicks in. The school specialises in sports, math and IT which are his favourite subjects, single Sex school, walking distance and I feel that as we are new to the area and know nobody would be good to go to the local school as the catchment for the school is only 1 mile so nearly every child walks to school meaning it will help him settle in as well as make friends locally.

Spoke to the school and they said the is no point appealing because you won't win. They also sent an email saying this;

"I can confirm that although the school has a relatively small in-take per year of 210 boys, we are still a larger than average Secondary School with 1,690 pupils on site (which includes our Sixth Form of which there are 625 girls and boys). In year 9 we currently have 215 boys, which is above our published admission number, therefore, even if we were to lose one or two boys we still wouldn’t be replacing them. Our SEN total for year 9 currently stands at 53, of which 14 are fully Statemented, with the rest needing teaching support for minor learning difficulties. Class room sizes vary, but in the main we try to stick to about 26 to 28 per class, although the more challenging classes will have fewer pupils.
This Year because the Borough have struggled to find enough places for children going into Secondary School, we have had to take on a bulge class of an additional 30 pupils for year 7. Therefore, as you can imagine, we are bursting at the seams and even if you decided to appeal, the outcome does not look promising. I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I’m afraid there is no point appealing as you won't win and don't want to waste either of our time."

So to keep it simple does that mean it's pointless applying. I have spoken to the La and they have said there are no school places available in the borough and they mentioned the fair access protocol but nothing will be done until he has officially left his current school meaning if he left in July he would be out of school in Sept until a school is found

Does anyone have any advice what to do

[prh47bridge]

So it is. Apologies.

[AllPowerfulLizardPerson]

"You would have been better starting your own thread rather than resurrecting an old thread."

??

This is her own thread that OP is updating.

[Mumofmanychores]

Thank you I shall start a new thread

[Cleo1303]

I suppose you have already tried for a bursary at his old school? Have you also checked out various charitable trusts which help with school fees and which you may qualify for?

I know two women who were widowed early. One husband was an architect and the other a fishmonger. Both of those occupations have (or had at the time) charities which paid for school fees. It might be a thought to see if you qualify.

[prh47bridge]

You would have been better starting your own thread rather than resurrecting an old thread. However, this is not acceptable. The Admissions Code is clear that you are entitled to apply for a place at any school at any time. They should not be making you wait until September or October. Don't take no for an answer. If they continue to refuse to process your application tell them you will refer the matter to the Local Government Ombudsman as a clear case of maladministration.

[Mumofmanychores]

I listen to all the advice and applied for an in year transfer beginning of march. As of 7th July my ds would have no school as they would have broke up. Still no school places available in the borough and the LA are saying they won't be looking into it until July. I have asked whether he would have a school place in Sept and if not how long will he be out of school and they said 3 weeks maybe he would be out of school. But honestly I don't think they actually know.

My question is why should a child start school later then everyone else despite given ample notice. Surely it's advisable to find something prior to Sept so that we could liase with school and sort out gcse options, uniform etc. Now he probably won't start til oct missing out on possible vital info.

[admission]

vintagedresses, I agree that £1800 is a considerable amount of money for a small school and quite frankly it is far too much for appeals that I would presume was for not more than 2 days.
However the reality is that if the LA is charging you for appeals then they will, as I understand the latest financial information,already be devolving funding for appeals to the school. I seriously doubt it is £1800 of funding but that I am afraid is reality. The answer from the LA will be you have had the funds and you need to budget for such appeals.

[Mumofmanychores]

I applied for 4 schools earlier this year and will reapply in Jan as I think the waiting list ends in December. No spaces have come available as mentioned majority of the schools are very over subscribed especially in the borough we live in. The LA will not find a school until I physically take him out or until around late June where he would be considered out of school for Sept. We can only list 4 schools and go on the waiting list for 4 schools. The schools I have out are not based on which has the best ofsted reading, it's simply based on distance in which out of the 4 we would only have been in catchment for 2 in normal admissions rounds which means unlikely we would be near the top for out of catchment schools. And one of the catchment schools is 5 over pan and has said they will not be replacing if someone leaves which leads to one school. I don't know the situation other than its full. I know in the Sept we were 12th on the list and the school does have quite a high student turnover with many kids transferring to other schools in the borough so from that I can see there is lots of movement but hopefully there will be further movement between now and Sept.

[VintageDresses]

I understand why the school wants to discourage appeals. Our tiny school has just recived the LA bill for September's appeals - £1800 which is a massive amount to us.

After salaries our entire annual budget is about £60k and £1800 had to be spent on pointless appeals parents had no chance of winning and over which we had no control.

[enderwoman]

The schools round here start GCSE work in Spring or Summer of y9. Have you considered removing him before July?
I would apply now, get the "no schools available" letter then wait for your lea to offer something so you can go onto as many waiting lists as necessary. No appeals are heard over the summer holidays and you run the risk of people moving over the summer and overtaking you on the waiting list or being offered any old school in late September because lea will wait 2-3 weeks in September to see if somebody who hasn't turned up for school had left the area.

If you want to your son to finish his current school at the end of term, I'd pull him out at the end of the Spring term, get an offer/appeal sorted in the summer term and aim for him to be at a state school after May half term.

[mummytime]

If they have a whole bulge class, they may well be able to take extra pupils as one drops out, or even have space (as only having filled 27 out of 30 places for the bulge class).

[mummytime]

If they have a whole bulge class, they may well be able to take extra pupils as one drops out, or even have space (as only having filled 27 out of 30 places for the bulge class).

[admission]

To clarify about who can do what. The PAN for the school, confirms in all normal situations the number of pupils that have to be admitted to the year group, no matter the circumstances.
However a few years ago the admission regs were changed so that it is possible for the school, with the agreement of the LA and other schools, to admit more than the PAN, if it is not detrimental to other schools. Some schools will do this, others stick religiously to the PAN figure. That does not mean the year group will not be over PAN even if the school stick to the AN figure, because the LA might have insisted on going over PAN, for instance because of the Fair Access Protocol, or be over PAN because of successful appeals.
So to some extent it depends on the school's attitude to going over PAN as to whether if a pupil leaves with the school being over PAN, they will replace or not. For instance if the PAN was 270 and the school agreed to take 290 originally, then when one leaves they may well replace to keep the numbers at 290. If however the school said the PAN is 270 but 290 were admitted under appeal, then the school would almost certainly not replace. As usual with these things they are not necessarily straight forward

[Mumofmanychores]

From what I know my sons school year and the years below were the highest numbers that the La had with not enough school places available which then resulted to some schools having bulge classes and many schools having over the specified amount due to the shortage of school places. So even with waiting lists even if a child was to leave it won't necessarily create a space if they are over pan only the La can from what I'm gathering.

I'm also quite lucky that all the schools in the area are good and I won't be able to choose but as long as my son has a school space that's all that matters.

I shall fill in an in year app in Jan and see what happens from there.

Thank you for all your advice. Your comments have been very helpful.

I will also appeal for our nearest schools as someone mentioned we have nothing to lose just to gain.

[admission]

Timing is always everything in these situations.
The first thing to say is that most LAs do not run any appeals through August, simply because of the problem of getting up to date info from the school. So if you think in terms of the latest appeals being mid July and realistically a 1 month period minimum for getting it organised, then you must be thinking of appealing no latter than mid June. Given how busy the admissions office will be of the LA, to me that says you should be applying for a place at schools you prefer no later than Mid May, remembering the Whit break at the end of May.
I would take with a pinch of salt the comment that there are no places available anywhere. There will be places either because pupils move or because the LA use the FAP to make things happen. What you do need to accept is that either way you might not end up with your "ideal" prefered school.

[teacherwith2kids]

The timing seems difficult to me - maybe the admissions people could advise?

On the one hand, if you apply now, and are told there are no places, then it feels as if you could go through the whole appeals process in a timely manner and get your DS into a school for September or before ... and if no place is available, then you can appeal again in September (I think it is once per academic year?) and the LA may invoke FAP.

On the other hand, if you apply now and a school place is offered in an undesirable school, then would you have to take that place quickly (as well as appealing for a preferred place), because turning it down would mean that the LA had no more responsibility to find you a place?

So although it feels very much like 'brinkmanship', unless the second scenario can be avoided in any way, I can see that applying close to the end of the school year for next year may well be the only pragmatic way forward - yes, you may end up with an undesirable school or no school in September, but you avoid having to go to an undesirable school while still paying fees up till July at the private one!

[prh47bridge]

It depends on exactly what their FAP says. Children out of education for 2 months must be covered by the FAP but the LA can include other categories of children and/or set a shorter timescale if they want. If you would like to name the LA involved I'll be happy to take a look for you. PM me if you don't want to post that information publicly.

[Mumofmanychores]

So does that mean that my child would have to be out if education for 2 months as the La just told me this is what will be used if there are no spaces available although they told me there wasn't any spaces available anyway

[prh47bridge]

The FAP can be invoked by the LA to deal with children who are hard to place such as children with challenging behaviour, homeless children, children of travellers and children who have been out of education for 2 months or more. The details of how it operates vary from LA to LA.

Any child being admitted under the FAP takes priority over anyone on the waiting list regardless of whether or not the school's admission arrangements state this. The FAP can be used to admit a child to a school that is already full. It only covers schools in the LA's area so it is unlikely that it would be used to get a child into a school in an adjacent LA.

Note that you cannot choose to use the FAP. That is the LA's decision. If your child falls into one of the categories covered by the FAP and you are struggling to find a place the LA should invoke it automatically.

[Mumofmanychores]

With the fair access protocol how does this work. Do they just approach all the schools in the borough and see which school would take an extra child despite being full. As I've seen on a few schools admissions priority is given to those under the fair access. Is there any positive or negatives going down this route and will the school be in the borough or would they approach other local La to find a school

[Mumofmanychores]

Yes I believe they can check and will as they asked me have I given notice to leave and I think from what they were saying nothing will not be done until closer to July but knowing how slow the La can be and especially during the period of the general yr 7 entry and appeals there services and phone times will be limited from March onwards. So I doubt a place for Sept will be given before the holidays but I could be wrong.

I don't want to take him out now as again we don't know how long it could take and they are aware that he is paid up until July.

[purpledasies]

That's a crap situation to be in isn't it? :(

I do think you might be better letting him leave the school he's at sooner rather than later though (or at least telling the LA that he's left - can they check with private schools whether they're still there?) to get him moved during Year 9. Being without a place in Year 9 for a few weeks would probably be less damaging than during Year 10.

[Mumofmanychores]

Yes I have given notice that he will leave end of term.

The La is not saying that I can't apply until he leaves. I can apply anytime I want but there are no schools available in the borough so none would be offered. My son would have to have physically have left the school before a school is found by whichever force because then he would be a child in the borough without a school place.

[prh47bridge]

I don't think it's correct that you have to have removed him from his current school before you can apply

It definitely isn't correct. Parents can apply for any school at any time. However, that doesn't appear to be what the LA is saying. They appear to be saying that the OP's son can't be considered under the Fair Access Protocol until he has left his current school. That is correct. So once he leaves his current school additional options may be available as the LA can use the FAP to force a school that is already full to accept him.

[purpledasies]

I don't think it's correct that you have to have removed him from his current school before you can apply. I moved my DD mid-year from one school to another (both state schools) and I didn't have to do that. She stayed at her current school until the new place was confirmed, then had to move within a few weeks, so did it mid-year. If you apply whilst he's still at his current school and you're lucky enough to win an appeal for the school you want - or anther one that you'd accept, you'd be wise to take the place even though it's mid-year. It would mean he'd get a chance to settle in before GCSEs start, which would be a good thing. The fees you've paid are paid already, so there's no point keeping him there for the sake of it.

If they offer a school you don't want, you can then turn down the offer and keep him at his current school whilst you reconsider what to do, if necessary applying again in July. You won't be forced to take a place you don't want, and nor can they refuse to consider an application from a child who's currently at a private school, as long as you're in their borough.