Y7 day 1: I'm already cross.

[PiqueABoo]

The [bleeps] threw two lots of CATs at them.

If you wanted to depress the results and also make them a bit unreliable, then I can't think of a better time i.e. when lots of the children are a teensy bit anxious to say the very least.

Can anyone talk me out of that view?

[pourmeanotherglass]

First day seems a bit mean to me too.
Many kids are really anxious and won't have slept well the night before, so might not do their best.
DD did no work at all on day 1, just start of school stuff, and getting to know each other games, but her school has a wide catchment, so many children are the only child from their primary.
She did a CAT test and maths test on day 5, which was fine.

[PiqueABoo]

Someone posted a link to a GL Assessment CATs document with some sample questions in another thread and DD wandered by and pounced on it to confirm it was those tests and she did get questions just like the samples. The latter are definitely coachable and some e.g. number series, are NC stuff.

From their FAQ:

There is no such thing as a measure of innate ability. The quality of prior teaching, opportunities to learn, parental support, pupils' educational experience, and their emotional and physical well-being, including nutrition, will affect pupils' performance on all educational tests.

They obviously go on to say it's less influenced by those than tests of curriculum knowledge.

[ArcheryAnnie]

I, too, am sick of the "you can't practice for CATs" bullshit. Yes, you can, and it makes a difference. I can see entirely why a school tests the kids when they arrive, but to pretend it's testing for innate ability when it's actually testing for prior academic input is annoying.

[PiqueABoo]

@jeee: "The school clearly took no notice of her CAT scores"

Good for them because the correlation between cognitive ability and achievement (GCSE passing etc.) is allegedly 0.5 as opposed to 1.0. Not that CATs only measure cognitive ability.

[PiqueABoo]

@Noodledoodledoo, was that L5-L6 puzzle maths?

If so, then the specification for L6 maths is a mix of L6 questions and difficult L5 which makes it a bigger puzzle. Then this year (numbers vary but point stands for previous years) the SATs thresholds were:

L5 = 79% of marks
L6 = 64% of marks

A child who is OK-ish at both but makes a silly mistake 20% of the time can pass an L6, but might only scrape an L5.

[ChocolateWombat]

Getting a bit panicky isn't the end of the world! They will have forgotten it by tomorrow.
Schools go a long way these days to make the transition into Secondary easy and smooth. A test taken early on isn't a big deal and doesn't lead to the children all turning into gibbering wrecks. Things like having a welcome day or days in July,more time with the Form Tutor, perhaps a slow start to homework, a buddy/mentor from a higher year group, early lunches in the first week etc etc all help to make children feel confident in their new environment,far more than holding a test back until week 4 would do.

[TheLovelyBoots]

My son had his CATS yesterday, so the fourth day of school. He said everyone was a bit panicky.

[jeee]

I strongly suspect my DD's CAT scores were atrocious. I know that when she did Non-Verbal CAT tests at the end of Year 5 she scored in the 90s (she got 140 in her 11+ - thus proving categorically that NV tests can be taught for).

The school clearly took no notice of her CAT scores, and looked at the quality of her work.

[Noodledoodledoo]

It is based on KS2 SATS but as many have said already, this data needs to be verified so the secondary schools can make sure the students make the progress expected.

My school (by the way I started MAT leave yesterday hence posting at 9:30am on a Tuesday) has 40 plus feeder schools for each Yr 7 intake. These primarys vary hugely in the presure put on Yr6's for SATS.

We had students last year who had been awarded a level 6 at KS2 SATS optional test, but when you looked at the standard SATS data they had achieved a low level 5. Our take on it was they had been coached for the Level 6 paper - completely understand to make the school look good in tables (we all have to play this horrid game) but the student in question did not have a firm base to start from on the basic so ended up in our second set not top set which the level 6 might have put them in. They have thrived and have just as much opportunity to do well but we need to make sure the work is the best suited to give them that opportunity.

Testing on the first day is a bit mean but we test within the first 10 days as we set within the first 3 weeks - not much time to mark tests, and sort 240+ students into sets - including ensuring the paired subject we are with are also happy with the sets.

[AmberTheCat]

I'm not anti-testing, and my dd positively enjoys them, but personally I think the first day isn't the right time to do them, however low key they may be. There are better ways to start children off on the secondary school career, and surely plenty of time in the first couple of weeks to slip them in?

I thought Progress 8 was purely based on KS2 SATs, rather than any baseline test the secondary school chooses to do?

[HSMMaCM]

DD was set after cats at the beginning of year 7 and the sets were adjusted as she moved through the school. Even in year 10, they talked about changing her English set.

[ChocolateWombat]

Excellent point Noodle.

[Noodledoodledoo]

Or maybe putting students into sets which are constantly looked at throughout secondary school means they can accelerate at a pace that suits them.

Some subjects even with the best differentiated lesson in the world it is impossible to get the best from all students without putting them in sets.

Students in our last years Yr 7 intake students varied from level 6 - GCSE equivilent D to below level 2 - the expected level of someone at the end of Year 2. Incredibly tough to cater for all of those effectively.

When you are faced with a students declaring its all too easy and the student next to him crying within the first few weeks as all his beliefs that he is rubbish at the subject are being confirmed it makes you see why sets are the best.

It doesn't write students off - last year I taught second from bottom set out of 10 sets in a normal comp in Yr 11 and had students with targets of D aiming for C - two of which beat the targets set by school to do so. The set does not determine the outcome at all.

[ChocolateWombat]

Most of these tests are not actually for setting purposes. They are effectively IQ tests and are used to assess potential, not what children know. They are used as baseline data...measuring the starting point. The computer programmes then predict outcomes at GCSE (which the children are never told.....because they are just a prediction, not a certainty...and like you say, it doesn't help for children to feel limited in what they can achieve). However they are useful for flagging up when children are under performing. If data suggests they should be on line for a B, but are working at D level, the teachers can look into why this is and take steps to help.

These kind of tests don't test what you know. You can't really prepare for them. The children won't know the results. They are done so early to just get them out of the way. Leaving them until a few weeks later, or warning children they were coming up, would generate more stress and people trying to prepare for them.

Teachers form their impressions of children from a variety of information. Many will come with SATs results, they might do these IQ type tests, teachers will watch children in class and look at their written work. The full picture does take a while to emerge and teachers know that. It is why many schools don't set at all in the first term or year. However, the more information that can be gathered, the better the overall picture and the less one individual off-day in a test, in class or in homework matters, because teachers really do look at the overall picture.

And regarding those tests, teachers know that although they are pretty accurate when looking at the statistical outcomes of large samples of pupils,they are not accurate for everyone. So it becomes known that X is actually much better than their baseline test suggests, or X perhaps over performed in the test,mbut has never then worked at that level.

Most children do the tests in a low key environment, with little warning, so no time to be stressed. It is over quickly and onto something else. And with these baseline tests, they never hear about them again. I think it is parents who are stressed by the idea, not the kids tbh.

Of course there maybe other tests too which do test knowledge, but they do tend to come later. When faced with possibly 200 students that are all new, there have to be ways to get a quick sense of where they are starting from. But again, teachers understand that people do t always perform well and children are not pigeon holed as able or limited for evermore. Have a bit of faith in the fact they are professionals.

[kimichischool]

Why does it have to be the first day? So you can "set/stream" them, and make sure they all know who the "bright" ones are, and who the "not-so-bright"??? Why can't there be time for them to settle in, for the teachers to get to know them through teaching and listening to them, to get to know their abilities through the work that they produce and come up with an assessment in the first half of term? Why tests? Why are we so intent on putting them into boxes and leaving them there? I'll give you one thing....that certainly works in a small school where there are fifteen in a class, thirty in a year. Probably not so much in a school with hundreds of children in the year. Oh yes! That's why we lose so many of them! Ignored or left to get on with it because they coast nicely down the middle of the stream.

[BitOutOfPractice]

Are you saying I'm not allowed to comment any more?

Wow!

[ChocolateWombat]

It is very common to test on the first day.
In fact,MIT is also common for primary schools to set on the first day of Juniors and each year thereafter. Yes, the kids have had a long break, but the tests probably give a fairer reflection of ability,because most won't have been coached. Things like MidYis are testing ability,not Knoweldge anyway. They are often used for tracking purposes and will be used to predict GCSE outcomes, so teachers have an idea if someone is performing to the level they should, or underperformance. They can be used to assess the added-value of schools.

I agree it is not terribly welcoming to do a test on the first day, but most kids are probably not stressed by it and the fact it is done in a low key way,with no build-up makes it less nasty than having 2 weeks notice.
And whilst the OP is moaning about this, other parents in schools that haven't done it yet, will be complaining that the school has been back 2 days and little Jonny hasn't been assessed yet. So tbh, schools can't win.

Schools do need to assess new students. It might be for setting purposes or not,mbut they need to know where kids are beginning and actually a 'surprise' test is probably the fairest way of doing it. Everyone has been off all summer and it probably is a good reflection of true, not coached ability.

Sixth Formers do a similar thing on their first day back called ALIS.....tests ability and is used for tracking purposes,to see if students are on track to achieve the A Level grades they seem capable of.......not accurate for every indict ideal, but is pretty accurate on a more global scale.

[Four125]

I meant bring her out of her previous educational reluctance.

Oops.

[Four125]

The new Progress 8 measure at GCSE measures the progress a student makes throughout their Secondary Education from start to finish.

One of the best ways for a school to establish a baseline in order to measure progress is to test students at the start of year 7.
This progress will be monitored and any dips will be addressed at an early stage.

SATs results can be manipulated; it is easy to coach students to be able to pass them and test conditions can vary from Primary to Primary.

It's true, some coaching for CATs could be done beforehand but it would be less effective as the exam is not as formulaic and the questions are designed to test thinking skills, rather than literacy or numeracy skills.

The first week is a good and fair time to test for this, the first day? If it's the same for everyone then it will be fine.

As other posters have said OP you do seem very negative about DD's new school. I think looking at the positives would be more beneficial.
This might be exactly the school she needs to bring out her previous educational reluctance.

[HibiscusIsland]

If it's any help op, I know of at least one grammar school that sprung tests on year 7s on their first day. Seems to be quite common now although as I said I agree it's not very friendly/welcoming

[Lottiedoubtie]

sorry! Someone said it to me once and I was incandescent! ...in hindsight they were right though

I guess I've become that person

[BackforGood]

A little bit of perspective is a valuable thing


Ooh Lottie - I think that's going to become my new favourite phrase on MN now - there are SOOOOOOO many threads I could have used that over the years

[Lottiedoubtie]

I also don't really understand your issue. Why do you think schools who have done the tests in July are organised and those that wait for September disorganised? It seems logical to me to wait until September when the year 7 roll will have 'settled' and they can all be tested together.

Also on your point about practicing and improving for the test, of course you are right children can be coached for the tests and some improvement in outcome gained. However the reason your daughter was told she couldn't revise for them was two fold, firstly to reassure her and secondly because the school absolutely do not want her to revise and artificially inflate her result. It is better for your DD to get her lowest 'bad day' score so that school can support her from right now, where she is now not where she was after months of SATs prep and it is also much better for the school who are judged on their 'value added' data. Win win ifyswim

It is good for your DD to see tests as part and parcel of school life, small manageable things that just happen rather than as huge trials that require special breakfasts and long periods of ramping up to. A little bit of perspective is a valuable thing.

[GnomeDePlume]

PastSellByDate Thu 04-Sep-14 12:12:09:
it's consistently trying your best (paying attention in class, asking questions when confused, getting help when struggling, regularly keeping up with homework, reading a bit ahead, etc....) which reaps rewards at testing.

THIS THIS THIS

And it doesnt just reap rewards at testing but all the way through school.

If every one was tested on day 1 then so what? Everyone was in the same boat.

[BackforGood]

eh? What are you talking about??

Looking at your title, and your first post you are coming across as being very angry about the school wanting a baseline assessment. It's hardly unexpected, surely?