The IGCSE Unfairness from Gove

[LuluJakey1]

For years, Tories have hailed the IGCSEs that public schools do, as much harder than the GCSEs that state schools do. They held them up as evidence of the academic rigour and high standards of public schools.

Now that state schools have been allowed to do them and they count in school league tables, what has emerged is that lots of schools are opting for them because actually, they are much less onerous, have less content, are very predictable and said schools are doing extremely well with them, as well as if not better than many public schools.

My friend mole at the DFE tells me that, surprise , surprise, Mr Gove will reverse his decsision of a couple of years ago and announce, in the near future, that IGCSE English and IGCSE Maths will no longer be allowed to count in state school league tables from summer 2016.

However, public schools, which are not restricted, will still be able to take them and count them in their results.

Who says the Tories are not elitist and don't favour the already privileged!

[nooka]

But exams also get gamed. When I sat my A levels our best teacher made us sit seven or eight past papers under exam conditions and tutored us extensively on how to analyse papers, which questions to pick, what answers they were looking for etc. Really valuable exam skills which I have taken with me to every exam I have subsequently sat. But fundamentally aimed to get us the best possible grades, to me this was an example of great teaching (was the only exam I really did well in too - I was a high performer, but otherwise flunked my A levels).

[JennyCalendar]

Just to add, we are incredibly strict about no cheating on coursework or excessive help in my school.

[JennyCalendar]

We do CIE IGCSE English Lang and Lit. I am so cross about this, but hope that they can get a revised IGCSE out in time (I'm taking part in some consultancy on this).

Middle - You are a little incorrect about the coursework percentage for English language. There are various options. We do Written coursework (3 pieces) for 40%, speaking exam for 20% and final exam for 40%. There are also options for lit, but we have gone for the 100% exam route.

[HercShipwright]

I'm not sure that all IGCSEs have more 'currency' you know..

[TheWordFactory]

This is one of the reasons that IGCSEs currently have more currency; they generally don't have coursework, they don't have modules, they don't have CAs...

[TheWordFactory]

nook it's possible that in those early stages, pupils and teachers approached coursework as it was supposed to be approached.

However, soon after GCSEs bedded in, schools began to milk both coursework and the ability to resit bitesized modules ad infinitum to bump up grades. Thus began the devaluing of our exam system at 16.

It became widealy accepted that many pupils cheated on their coursework so that was eventually scrapped. It became widely accepted that a GCSE obtained through taking and resitting modules was not remotely equivalent to a GCSE passed in one sitting, so they were scrapped.

It is now pretty widely accepted that CAs are a pile of pants and they're being scrapped.

[nooka]

I took the last year of O levels and my dh took the first year of GCSEs levels. We were in the same year at university and I can't say that he appeared to be disadvantaged in any way. If coursework was such a dreadful thing wouldn't there have been a drop in A levels results that year?

We emigrated to Canada a few years ago and my children are lucky to be in a highly regarded education system that has very little reliance on exams, instead the children have to maintain very high, very consistent grade point averages to get into the best universities. Exams are not the be all and end all, just a test of a particular set of skills (which for for O levels was basically cramming).

[middleclassonbursary]

The new exam may be better preparation but I suspect many independent school will stick with the IGCSE because it's not being adjusted and altered every couple of years at the whim of ministers. Many independent school also routinely teach way beyond the actual exam curriculum and as Theword view IGCSE's as an irritation so I think they will just stick with what they know works for them; easier or harder they certainly aren't have a detrimental effect on the fantastic results many get.

[TheWordFactory]

I think if Mr Gove's new all-singing-all-dancing qualification turns out to be better prep for A level/pre-u than IGCSE, then many schools will adopt it.

However, most teachers, in both sectors, remain unconvinced that it will prove to be much more than a pig in a poke!

As things stand, it is not even available, let alone tried and tested...

[BoneyBackJefferson]

middle

I concur that which is harder is based on whom people trust, (universities say so, ministers say so etc.)

summer

Without a doubt the current system needs to be improved, but changing the system for one that a good chunk of the pupil population cannot access won't make it better.

[middleclassonbursary]

The link said "ministers belief that IGCSE's don't share the same construction as the government reformed qualification-in terms of amount of course work and the timing of the exam."
Firstly if ministers believe something them I have a tendency to not believe it, secondly for CIE IGSE English Lang only 10% of the mark is course work. I haven't got the faintest idea what wrong with the timing of it my DS sat his this summer in May ok maybe a week earlier than others but I do t see that as a problem.

[summerends]

Boney I don't want to air my credentials or expertise (they might all be made up anyway. However I have certainly observed the limitations of the present system in preparing students for independent thinking . IGCSEs and preUs fulfil at least some of my above criteria

[BoneyBackJefferson]

summer

Your suggestions whilst valid are still only opinions, and to ratify the belief that the exams are harder you would be relying upon the opinions of others.

What would you do to obtain valid scientific data to support the hypothesis that IGCSEs are harder than GCSEs?
the link provided by Tissue would suggest that those bringing in the new exam believe that the new exam is harder than the current IGCEs.

[middleclassonbursary]

I can't see that this will effect many of the independent schools who only offer IGCSE Tissue as many have already opted out of league tables my DS2's has and as I said doesn't seem to even publish their IGCSE results (I looked on their website after I posted above). Doesn't bother me.
One of the many advantage of paying is that your school and your children are not at the whim of every government change.

[summerends]

Not sure if we are talking of the same types of degrees but some professions require a high level of practical competence as well as academic skills.
My criteria for a tougher exam would be

1. not modular - thereby preventing material just being learnt in small chunks and then forgotten.
   
2. testing writing and reasoning skills and not just using pre rehearsed question types, pre- learnt answers or assessments dependent on variable teaching help.
   
3. for MFLs learning the building blocks so that these can be pieced together flexibly not just parrot fashion for certain stock phrases.
   
4. a more demanding syllabus to be covered for higher grades.
   The benchmark - well I think those who teach the subjects at post school level could help judge for sixth form exams as they already do by UCA points but I am sure you and others have other solutions.

[Tissuemapissue]

Update on iGCSEs : www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-28108153

[BoneyBackJefferson]

summer

taking the points as split
On point one we seem to agree, but if poor exam performance is an indicator of intelligence then why do many degrees have an high ratio of vocational sections to them?

on point 2 how do you set a benchmark that shows which type of examination is harder of easier.

[summerends]

Boney it does n't make them unintelligent but unless they have learnt to strategies as soon as possible for example for dyslexia / poor working memory it does mean that they will also find higher academic exams a dispiriting struggle.
You seem to be arguing two points but not separating them - 1)a poor exam performer does not equate with poor academic intelligence - of course not but see above.
2) all exams of all types cannot be shown to be harder or easier
Most would disagree with you.
I think that masking somebody's future academic difficulties by prepared CA and coursework may get them good results but not the skills to cope with university learning and testing.
Of course academic intelligence does not relate necessarily to success later in life.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

"we judge a school on whether they are kept interested and enough are getting into the range of courses they aspire too."

We judge schools on how well all pupils are kept interested and enough are getting into the range of courses they aspire too, not just the academics.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

summer

You are now changing the criteria of your argument, Yes for the most academic we use tests, but just because someone is not academic and finds tests hard that does not make them unintelligent.

[summerends]

For the most academic we judge a school on whether they are kept interested and enough are getting into the range of courses they aspire too. The universities judge which students they feel are most suited and assess the credit given to post 16 exams.
I can just reiterate that coursework and CAs that one of my DC has done for GCSE seems little learning gain for time spent particularly for MFLs.

[TheWordFactory]

middleclass DS school seesm to treat IGCSEs as an irritant .

The results certainly aren't trumpeted. Everyone assumes and expects they will be good.

It's the 18 year olds' results that matter. Where did the leavers go...

And even then, many people would choose the school regardless.

[middleclassonbursary]

My DS2 also does CIE IGCSE whereas my less able DS2 did mainly GCSE's at his school, the less able did GCSE's the bright CIE IGCSE. I've endlessly revised both, having studied science at undergraduate level I was shocked and concerned at the level in the GCSE science papers, nothing like my day, my DH did English and he was very surprised at the English Lit. Can't comment on the MFL as DS1 didn't do one so nothing to compare DS2's against. But a friend whose an MFL teacher endlessly comments on the dumbing of the French MFL, I failed spectacularly GCSE(O level) many years ago and even I could answer 70% of the French GCSE questions correctly. We had less to do with DS2 revision thankfully but the bits I did for the science the level was higher although I still slightly disappointed frankly.
Boney and others I also don't buy into the logic that super selectives would use easier IGCSE in preparation for the harder Pre U what would be the point? I know you think they're results obsessed but also why give your super able pupils an easier IGCSE? Surely they want to stretch them not bore them stiff. Also most parents who've chosen these type of schools are not interested on (I)GCSE results I know I'm not and neither are most of the parents I talk too, it's university destinations that interest us and therefore it's the A level/Pre U results that count. I not even sure DS's school even publish the IGCSE results, frankly I've never even tried to find them, whereas I did scrutinise the Pre U/A level results of his school and others we looked at carefully especially the subjects my DS is interested in.

[TheFirstOfHerName]

The change will only be from 2017. DS1 has already started his courses and five of his subjects are iGCSEs, but he'll be finished by 2016.

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10936433/International-GCSEs-axed-from-school-league-tables.html

[BoneyBackJefferson]

summerends
"I am not sure what point you are making."

My point as posted upthread, is that there is no definitive way of proving that one method of examination is harder/better than any other.

For every school that "spoon feeds" controlled assessment there is a school that "teaches to the test".