ds's A Level choices drama rumbles on... help!

[lainiekazan]

The form has to be in on Friday and he can't decide.

He is definitely doing Eng Lit and History. Then he hasn't a clue. The runners are Music, Latin and Philosophy.

He is thinking of putting down all 5 but I think he'll have a nervous breakdown (or I will) if he starts off doing that many. He's worried that Music does not look good enough, he would find it difficult to achieve as highly in Latin as students at a public/private school, and that Philosophy would be one essay subject too many and, again, might not look that impressive.

Any opinions?

[Beastofburden]

I think this is a very interesting question.

The OP has given her view up thread-it's a shame to have to play the A* game, education ought to be about wider cultural things. I can absolutely see that, when they are younger, but for me, it ends at GCSE.

I guess from my perspective, I see it as more important that they can, at age 21, leave Uni and then use their creativity to think, what shall I do with my life, where shall I go? And sadly, too often what we see is graduates who can't make any such choices, because they have done uncompetitive subjects for A level and degree, and they are stuck.

I see a bigger picture perhaps, as I work in a university myself and have seen generations of students come and go, plus my own children and their friends are now early 20s.

My advice would be unwelcome, I think, to the kid in question. I think he has two options:

He takes essentially two A levels- English and history- plus a third placefiller. Of the three subjects he has in mind, any would do really, as long as he is confident of getting straight As in all three. So , make a pragmatic choice of the best taught and easiest subject, and for goodness sake don't do them all.

Or he can upgrade and do English and History, plus a modern language, if he wants a humanities degree, or plus maths, if he wants social sciences, or plus both, if he doesn't know what he wants. That would take him much further, and would be my advice, but it will also be more work and more risk.

In the end, it's all about delayed gratification. I enjoyed my music A levels- but I did three other competitive subjects as well. Music was just for fun. And it was the other three that got me my Uni place; and it was qualifying after Uni as an accountant that got me my job, combined with the languages. Music has stayed a much loved hobby.

[Beastofburden]

And since the autumn statement yesterday, the goalposts have shifted again. It used to be the case that AAB was especially valuable to all Unis apart from Oxbridge, because those students were not controlled - you could recruit as many as you want with no penalty (normally you get fined if you take too many, as the government is worried about the cost of the student loan book).

But yesterday they said they will abolish all student number controls from the year after next- when this kid will be going. So AAB is nothing special now compared with ABB, and I think Unis will go back to looking for AAA where they can recruit.

[ATailOfTwoKitties]

Lainie, just be bloody thankful that yours isn't adamant he's going to do drama studies, theatre studies and, ooh, let's see, media studies.

God I'd give my right arm for a bit of music, Latin or English in that lot.

And as for the assumption that it's not worth taking any subject that might drop below an A... You do know that around 10 to 20%, maybe 30%, typically get an A or above in each subject? Are all of the others wasting their time?

[friday16]

I think Unis will go back to looking for AAA where they can recruit.

There are roughly 12% fewer current 11 year olds than there are current 18 year olds. That is true over most of the EU. That continues a 19% drop in the number of 18 year olds over the past six years.

Source, ONS

There are 668200 11 year olds (born 2001-2), 754100 18 year olds (born 1994-5) and there are 927600 25 year olds (born 1987-8). That's a 28% drop for the cohort likely to go to university at 18 from 2006 to 2020. The current cohort applying at the moment is 19% smaller than the peak six years ago. This is why talk about small falls in application rates being somehow to do with student funding is such wild nonsense: anything which doesn't involve a 20% drop in numbers is a real increase in participation.

If university take-up remains constant as a proportion of the population, undergraduate courses reliant on home students (ie most of them, and in the humanities all of them) will experience a near-30% drop in potential students over the period 2006 to 2020. In fact there has been a swing towards STEM, so the humanities have two problems to face: fewer potential students, and they're less likely to be wanting to do arts and humanities anyway. Increasing participation involves lowering entry requirements, because there simply isn't a pool of people with AAB currently sat around as Neets.

Major courses at RG universities went into large scale clearing last year, for the first time in a generation, and almost all of the RG universities did for at least one course (there are exceptions you can count on one hand, all of them massive destinations for overseas engineering students who can be used to balance the books). Most announced that they would be in clearing before results day. At least one RG university issued an edict to accept all students who had been issued firm offers, irrespective of achieved A Levels. Adjustment, which is a sort of Waitrose clearing, has become a huge thing so that RG universities can say "we aren't in clearing but we still desperately need some more students, phone us anyway".

At least three RG universities massively undershot in 2012 and 2013, and several departments in STEM subjects at those universities were told to recruit pretty well anyone with a pulse, because they had least had applicants, in order to bolster overall university numbers. You can now get onto top 10 courses which in the prospectus are AAA with, in some circumstances, BBC. One RG university is routinely offering de facto unconditional offers in shortage subjects, subject to accepting them as a firm offer. They won't let you hold an unconditional as an insurance while holding your Oxbridge offer as firm; it remains to be seen how long UCAS will tolerate this bending of the rules. I suspect that in this cycle this procedure will become more common at other universities once they cotton on.

There are always trendy courses of the moment at trendy universities of the moment, there's always pressure on Oxbridge and as medicine is gated by the NHS's willingness to fund FT1 places the numbers are artificially constrained. So some individual courses may be able to keep offers high. But the idea that there will be any sort of widespread increase in offers in the current and next round (I have a child in the current round, and know what offers look like compared to last year) is pretty implausible. There simply aren't the qualified applicants.

[ATailOfTwoKitties]

Sorry, I should have been clear that Performance Studies with More Studies On Top is precisely my son's plan for the next two years.

[oscarwilde]

Someone has to work in media ATailof I suppose the main question is does he have any talent in that area or a definite goal in mind; or does he just watch a bit too much Glee/Xfactor

[Beastofburden]

But the proportion of overseas undergraduates is rising. So relying on the UK demographic is not necessarily a good idea. The unconditional thing was a one off strategy by one Uni and it is aimed at getting high performing candidates who want a good insurance offer. In fact, from memory, to qualify, you had to be predicted three A grades.

I don't think that everyone has to get three A grades. Upthread the OP didn't specify where he was aiming, just he wants to do the best he can. But outside the three a grade territory, subject choice matters even more.

The thing is, the relevance of A levels doesn't end when you get that Uni offer. Employers look at a level subject choices too. That was one of the things I was trying to say- many graduates end up in a pickle because they didn't look beyond getting in to Uni when they were in sixth form.

Employers value maths and modern languages. They won't be as interested in music, philosophy or Latin except for certain niche jobs, so at the very least, he ought to have a careful think, especially as he doesn't actually want to do any of them all that much. If he is equally not fussed about doing a modern language, and he would get the same grade, he ought to think about that.

[friday16]

But the proportion of overseas undergraduates is rising.

Hardly relevant for the typical humanities department, though. EU doesn't help, because EU demographics are more down-slanted than ours, and there's hardly a bull market in Chinese students coming to the UK to study history.

[mummytime]

Universities like overseas students because they pay more (true overseas not EU). However the government will still pressurise them to take numbers of UK students.

Beastofburden I might agree with your position up thread except I know increasing numbers of young people who are completing University and then in their 20s totally retraining as they discover the only thing they really want to do is for example be a graphic designer.

I still encourage my DC to do what they are passionate about. Most people can't get A* at A'level never mind a great degree in something they are not really interested in.

[Beastofburden]

This was advice to a specific kid, though, who doesn't really want to do any of his three choices of A level. And if he is not looking at three A grades, all the more reason to be careful what subjects he does.

I know some kids do retrain after their first degree. But there are many many more who just end up in non-graduate jobs. If we want to increase our kids' chances post Uni of not being in that group, one way is to guide them towards the most competitive subject choices we can. It would be different, perhaps, if the kid really liked any of the three. But we are told he doesn't.

On the more general issue, should they do what they love or what's sensible- I feel slightly passionate (if that's possible ) about this, as so many students close down their future options by choosing subjects that close doors for them. If you go outside the Russell group list posted up thread for too many of your A levels, you are going to have fewer options at Uni and when applying for jobs.

[titchy]

But beastofburden the OP's kid DOES have two A Level subject he very clearly wants to do. It is which two of the remaining three subjects that interest him he is wondering about.

That is not the same as someone who doesn't want to do any of their three choices

[ATailOfTwoKitties]

Oscar, he does have some talent in that area, that's the trouble. He's really pretty good, but not the-one-kid-to-watch in his year, if that makes sense?

He says his best bet at the Only Career He WantsTM is to do as much of it as possible, then aim for drama college.

He does not have a Plan B.

I would like to see some hint of a Plan B. Preferably also plans C to Z, actually.

[Beastofburden]

Titchy, that's what I meant to say, sorry if it was badly expressed. He has three things he might do as his 3rd choice and he doesn't really fancy any of those three options.

English and history- great.
Any of the other three- probably makes no difference so go for the one that gets you the best result with the least effort.

Or,
If he really doesn't care, he would get more bang for his buck doing maths and/or a MFL as his third option.

[lainiekazan]

Thanks, all. Interesting reading.

Ds is good at maths. He is good at French. But he is not a natural mathematician, ie one who could walk the A Level, no sweat. He is very good at French, but all the advice is that you are stuffed if you an ordinary student, as there are people taking it who have a French parent, or who have been intensively schooled. The advantage of Latin is that no one cab buy advantage with a holiday home in ancient Rome!

[Beastofburden]

Interesting.

I did a degree in French and German without any foreign travel or parents .

It may be hard to score an a* in French these days unless you are very fluent, I don't know as mine were a long time ago. But I don't think it is impossible to get an A grade as a normal candidate? So a lot depends on where he is aiming.

But if you look beyond the getting into Uni thing, and at his employability, I would suggest he will get more out of a French a level than a Latin a level.

Maths is popular all round as it says you are not just good at essays but can also do analysis. But it's also true that A level can be scary if you are not a natural. Perhaps that would increase his risk and stress unnecessarily, and put his other grades at risk.

I would suggest you challenge and doublecheck that advice about not doing French. A million years ago, when I did A level, I spent one Easter holiday in France (by myself on an exchange) and it just clicked.

[friday16]

but all the advice is that you are stuffed if you an ordinary student, as there are people taking it who have a French parent, or who have been intensively schooled

Who on earth is telling you that?

[Beastofburden]

I think it can be very hard for normal schools to find qualified language teachers. That said, I am worried by that advice too. It sounds like a bit of a cop-out, an excuse by the school.

Going on my experience of DS1s old school, it certainly isn't true.

But if the French teaching is dodgy where you are, OP, that's a factor it's best to be realistic about. Just, employers do love a MFL (they prefer German but I guess you can't have everything...)

[friday16]

I wonder sometimes if advice "bleeds" from one exam system to another.

For example: if you are taking the UK SAT, then the Spanish paper is to be avoided by anyone other than native speakers. There's a lot of people in the US who speak native-standard Spanish (the differences between the Spanish they speak and standard Spanish aren't significant for the purposes at hand) and the SAT is graded "on the curve", so an increase in the standard of the cohort will drive down the score that a particular standard will get. The SAT won't inflate, because the number of people who achieve 800 is pretty much fixed as a proportion of those taking it (there's some averaging over sittings). That's fine for the purpose of the SAT, which is not proving a particular standard, but just pulling off the top X% of the cohort.

But A Levels are criterion-referenced, not norm-referenced, and that's been true since the late 1980s. The grade available should be the same for a given standard no matter how good or bad the cohort. If people still think it's 1983 and A Levels have fixed proportions getting each grade, or that it's like the SAT, they may think that a cohort containing more native or quasi-native speakers will drive down grades a non-native speaker can get. I t shouldn't, and without evidence there's no reason to believe it does.

It's also worth pointing out that some selective universities will discount A Levels in MFL taken by people who are living in, have lived for extended periods in, or have parents who are native speakers of the language. A Level French is not intended for native speakers, and it would be farcical for a qualification designed to be taken by people studying for 6 hours a week (or whatever it is) to be benchmarked against people who have learnt it from the cradle, and that goes both ways.

[stillenacht]

Music is an academic A level and is treated as such by Oxbridge.

[friday16]

"you are taking the UK SAT,"

US SAT, of course.

[lainiekazan]

I might have another go at ds to consider French. He is very good at grammar etc, but, like most of us English, feels a prat when speaking it. I just can't shake off a bit of a feeling that Philosophy is tomorrow's Meedja Studies.

[lalsy]

www.trin.cam.ac.uk/index.php?pageid=604
www.ucl.ac.uk/prospective-students/undergraduate-study/application-and-entry/alevel-qualifications
As examples, Philosophy is on the list of Trinity's and UCL's approved A levels (and you don't need all three to be from those lists, even).Philosophy seesm to be considered a "hard" A level, but it is not a facilitating one (ie it is unlikely to be required for a university course). It seems to me to be very dry and technical though - I doubt it is easier to do well in than the others he is considering unless he "gets" it. Music and Latin are also on both those lists, btw.

An MFL as his third A level would open up another whole set of degrees according to the Informed Choices guide www.russellgroup.ac.uk/informed-choices/
but that only helps if he wants to do one of those degrees (MFL, European Studies etc) - and he will already have two subjects that open plenty of doors. If not, then getting high grades are most important (apart from the argument that employers prefer MFL at A level even if the degree is in something else - does anyone have a link to evidence for that, I am interested?)

I do think at some point dc have to narrow their options down - to do what they are best at and what they will enjoy. I would ask him to consider every subject he is good at - but I would not encourage him to continue a subject he doesn't like so that he will be able to apply to study more of it at degree level .

We went through the RG guide as a final check before my dd decided - just to make sure that any degree she vaguely liked the look of was still within reach (she hated French for example, so was quite happy to accept the consequences of not doing French A level - ie no more French!).

For example, the RG guide says for History degrees that History is essential and the following are useful: Economics, Eng lit, Philosophy, Politics, Sociology, Theology, RS or a modern or classical language. So he'd be fine with any of his options.

Sorry, long post!

[mummytime]

I did a Philosophy A'level about 15 years ago, and it wasn't dry, and was highly regarded by Universities. However the Philosophy A'level I have heard students doing recently is Philosophy and Ethics which is more like A'level religious studies than true Philosophy, but it's still reasonably well regarded. The Russell group booklet only suggests that two "facilitating" A'levels are a good idea. The do even take people with "Media Studies" which isn't quite as "noddy" as it is often portrayed.
French BTW isn't as rigorous nowadays as it was when I was at school doing my A'levels (first time).

[lalsy]

Absolutely mummytime, I am sure it is not dry to the right person - that's just how it seems to me - so I was warning against it as an "easier" option than music or Latin - I think sometimes people think it is chatting about whether god exists (I did some philosophy at university and dd's does seem a bit dry, but she quite enjoys it!).

[antimatter]

I know some schools do Philosophy and Ethics and fewer do Philosophy.
My dd is planning to take Philosophy so we chatted to students in both schools mentioned below at open evening and they were very enthusiastic about it.

My dd's school 6th form does RS: Philosophy & Ethics with Edexcel.
Course Content:
AS level Unit 1 Philosophy of Religion: The Design Argument, The
Cosmological Argument, Miracles and the Problem of Evil
Unit 2 Religion and morality, Utilitarianism, situation ethics,
issues of war and peace and sexual ethics
Unit 3 An enquiry based investigation with a choice of topic
A2 level Unit 4 Religious experience, ontological, critiques of religious
beliefs
Unit 5 Religion and morality, Deontology, natural moral law,
virtue ethics, objectivity, relativism, subjectivism, justice,
law and punishment
Unit 6 Implications of values and beliefs on religion and human
experience
Assessment
The course is assessed by examination only.

My ds's school does Philosophy with AQA
Course Content:
AS Unit 1: An Introduction to Philosophy 1
Assessment is in the form of a 90 minute written examination, with two compulsory questions on Reason and Experience and two further questions on the theme of Personhood.
• Reason and experience: What is the source of our knowledge? It is through experience or through rational thought?
• Persons: What is a person? What characteristics are required to be a person? Can non-humans be persons, for example Artificial Intelligence? What makes me the same person over time?

AS Unit 2: An Introduction to Philosophy 2
Assessment is in the form of a 90 minute written examination, with two questions to be answered on each of the following two areas of study:
• Knowledge of the external world: How do I gain knowledge of the external world? Do I ‘access’ the world directly, through my senses, or indirectly? Can I be sure that my sense-data is an accurate representation of the external world?
• Free will and determinism: Do we possess free will or are we determined to act, due to factors internal and external to us? Can I be both free and determined to act? If I am determined to act in a certain way, to what extent am I praise and blame worthy?


A2 Unit 3: Key Themes in Philosophy
Assessment is in the form of a 120 minute written examination, with two questions to be answered on each of the following two areas of study:
• Philosophy of Mind: What is the mind? What is the relation between the mind and the body? Is the mind a ‘ghostly’, immaterial soul, the brain or something else? If I can be sure that I have a mind, can I be sure that others have minds?
• Moral Philosophy: Are there moral truths and if so what is their nature? Can we deny moral truth altogether? Should moral decisions be made in terms of consequences alone, or do moral rights, duties and principles have intrinsic value independent of consequences?

A2 Unit 4: Philosophical Problems
Assessment is in the form of a 90 minute written examination, with two questions to be answered on the following area of study:
• Hume’s An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, with specific reference to:

1. Empiricism: the relation between impressions and ideas; the principles of association and what they are intended to explain; Hume’s fork; the nature of belief and imagination; miracles.
   
2. Cause and Effect: the role of custom and repetition in causation; the constant conjunction; Hume’s definition of cause; the necessary connection; probability;
   
3. Free will and determinism: Hume’s attempt to reconcile free will and determinism through compatibilism; what is meant by liberty and necessity.