Financial Help / Bursaries

[ElleSusanne]

Our daughter attends an independent secondary school on a full fee paying place. Shortly after she joined our household income dived to less than £24,000 p.a. due to the resession and her grandparents stepped in and loaned us the school fees for the past two years. However, they are now struggling and can no longer afford to help us. We now have to decide whether to move her to the state system or go cap in hand to the school. However, we have over £1,000,000 equity in our house (have lived here for 20 years), which I know sounds a lot but we do not earn enough to re-mortgage or even change our provider (we still owe £300,000). We also have around £15,000 savings for emergencies, which we actually owe the grandparents for the fees but they have kindly said we can sit on the money for now as it gives us security in case of broken boiler; car repairs etc - none of which can be funded from our income.
Wondering whether anyone has had a similar experience, i.e. applied for a bursary with property equity and savings, and whether it's worth asking the school for help or would they expect us to sell the house? I know the answer is to just ask them but it's not something we will find easy to do, especially if it's a crazy notion due to the property equity. I know on paper we sound well off but we are really struggling with day to day cost of living. Thank you! :)

[TallulahMcFey]

Thank you married. Am also in the category where if we stretched to it (and even then with a bursary) we would be living like field mice, although my husband does well v well amongst my friends. We too have also taken the view that we would rather give the children experiences such as holidays if it was an either/or situation. After all, my eldest is now at a Russell group uni doing a v competitive subject having hot A*AA to get there and is finding that the majority of those on her course are private school educated, yet she got there without it. On the other hand, my year 7 daughter's best friend has just started a private school and the experience does undoubtedly sound better! For example, an older bit said to my daughter "get out the f-ing way" (she had gone into secondary school not knowing the f word believe it or not!) on the same day that her friend was surprised by her class mates saying "thanks sir, that was a great lesson" to the maths teacher!

[marriedinwhiteisback]

Our children go (well DS has now left) to private schools for the following reasons:

DS: Is very clever indeed, very sporty, very sociable and at about 8 started to get very bored at primary. He is also very alpha and has always landed right in the centre of that little group of alpha "in crowd" boys. We decided he needed to be intellectually and physically stretched and if he was going to put down his roots with the alpha crowd then he would be in better company in the local private school than the local comprehensive.

DD: Is top average, quiet and very musical although totally unsporty. We actuallly sent her in Y7 to a top performing girls school with an enviable reputation. With a change of head there was a change in expectations and a significant downward shift in behaviour which was dreadful and very disruptive and dd found this very upsetting. The school was not prepared to deal with the behaviour on the basis that the girls behaving badly had other "problems". We moved her after the end of Y8 which is a natural time to move in the indy sector largely because she was not coping with the environment. We made a dreadful mistake with DD and I don't know what we would have done if we hadn't had the money to pull her out because she became terribly unhappy and there were no other state options.

Add to that the fact that we think education is very important and wanted to ensure that our children had access to a choice of modern foreign languages, three sciences and a classical language and that is rare to find where we live and that is the reason why. Other reasons are more specialist teaching between the ages of 7-11, ie, Maths is taught by a maths teacher, English, French, Science, History, etc.; the fact that poor teaching performance is dealt with quickly and parents are listened to more readily.

DD's school is quite small and nurturing but DS's was huge in spite of the fees. Bear in mind also that we are in inner London and I'm not sure London choices can be compared always to those elsewhere where populations might be more homogenous and more stable.

We actually tried very hard to make the state system work for our children and were delighted with the primary school they attended although it did not provide enough stretch for DS. We also learnt very early on that children, even from the same pod, are very different and one size does not fit all.

Ultimately, however, and not wanting to upset anybody, we had the choice because we have the money and could easily afford that choice. If we had not been able to pay the fees we would have tutored DS a bit; probably got him into a grammar such as Tiffin or Sutton and/or we would have moved out a bit to an area where the schools were better. I do honestly think that if you can't be sure of affording the fees a child's life is better enriched by nice holidays, some tutoring to fill in the gaps, and a generally comfortable life than by living like church mice.

Final point - our DC are both linguists - one ancient; one modern and this is a curriculum area which really is no longer being met, in my experience, in state schools - certainly not where we live.

[difficultpickle]

If ds were at state school I think he would be lost. Very bright but with issues that affect his schooling but which probably aren't bad enough to get him a statement. His school are bending over to help him achieve his potential in every way they can. I know he wouldn't get that level of support at state school (I know because of close friends' experiences of fighting to get their dcs statemented and how long and hard the battles were).

Most dcs at private school are exactly the same as their peers at state school. The one thing that private school but in smaller classes with less disruption. A friend of mine with a dc the same age as ds said our local state school teachers had to do an element of crowd control in their lessons. That just doesn't happen in private schools.

[TallulahMcFey]

On a slightly different note and purely cos I am trying to understand how it works, to both middle and married, what makes your child different and needing a private school in your opinion. My daughter has just gone into year 7 of a slightly above average comp and left year 6 with level 6b maths, level 6c reading and 5b grammar/spelling and plays grade 3/4 piano. She is, in my opinion, clever but not outstanding. She likes school and finds it easy but not unchallenging and boring. She fits in and is quieter than some but is sociable. I guess reading your bursary comments have made me think "am I doing the best for her?". What makes your children different to this, if anything, if you don't mind me asking.

[difficultpickle]

middle I think you are spot on re bursaries being scholarships in disguise. Most schools no longer offer bursaries unless a prospective pupil has been awarded a scholarship first. Harrow certainly do that. Eton still offer bursaries unconnected to scholarships and seem to want to encourage applications from boys who would benefit from what the school has to offer.

Ds has a high non-means tested scholarship at his current school and will need an even higher percentage scholarship/bursary for senior school.

[middleclassonbursary]

married the problem is that school fees are in reality out of the reach of the vast majority of the population. Obviously not all who want too can send their DC's even if there was enough money because they're simply isn't enough spaces. But so many think that they as individual families wouldn't qualify for a whole variety one so don't even bother to try. We found out by accident nearly 9 years ago we had a friend who knew someone who knew someone who said his prep school were offering bursaries and so we've been in a receipt of a bursary of some description for a long time and know how the system works. But many people don't and Im keen to tell them because I know what a difference it has made to my DS.
The saddest thing is that now bursaries are being targeted at the most able and it's a scholarship by another name. IMO it's actually the child who maybe on paper looks less bright, the one that struggles at times, is over looked by his state school, the one who isn't a grade 8 violinist/oboist/organist and who doesn't represents GB in his chosen sport, who would really benefit from a bursary into a decent boarding school. Sadly most schools that offer bursaries don't want those children.

[marriedinwhiteisback]

Because you said "my other DS's lunch, bus fare come to £125" .

Pax eh. I don't have an issue with bursaries per se and tried to be supportive towards the OP.

[middleclassonbursary]

Yup married you right sorry I should go on the proof reading course instead of you! . What I was trying to say unsuccessfully is that if I paid the full amount which I don't it would cost nearly £3000 PCM by the time the extra have been added in. On £87k a year this is simply not affordable. By the time rent utilities council tax patrol etc (not food clothes etc) has been if we paid that much we would only have £250 PCM left.
Our bursary is generous but we pay significantly more than £3000 a term.
By the way I don't just have one child I'm not sure why you think I do.

[marriedinwhiteisback]

And the people on more than 100,000 pa with more than one child only earn £13,000 per annum more than you. That works out at additional £7-£8k per annum. Hardly puts them in a different sub-set from you with one child.

[marriedinwhiteisback]

Middleclassonabursary This is what you said On £87000 a year it is not possible to pay fees of £34000 once we'd paid the £3000 a term by the tine we'd paid our rent utilities petrol a very large bill for us as we're rural rates etc we have £25O PCM to live on that by the way is family if three my other DS's bus fare lunch money cost £125 a month.
married it strikes me that you are jealous that we have been fortunate to get a bursary.

That's as clear as mud I'm afraid. £3,000 a term adds up to £9k a year, therefore you may be getting a bursary of £25,000 per year; or do you mean that if you were paying £3,000 per month you would have £250 left over each month? But that of course would add up to £36,000. And, how can you be a family of three if your other DS's bus fare and lunch money add up to £125 a month - and where does that ds go to school?

I have no objection to those who need bursaries receiving them but I question why you need to send your child to such an expensive school to receive an excellent education and I question why you can't reach a compromise that you fund yourselves when you a have a total combined income of £87,000.

You have been incredibly defensive on this thread for somebody who feels unconditionally right about what you are doing. You have also stated that old boys fund the bursaries. I am afraid neither my dh nor I would contribute towards bursaries offered to children whose parents earned £87,000 per annum. What I have learnt from this thread is that we are incredibly lucky to live within easy reach of the London Day schools which are both excellent in relation to the education they provide and philanthropic in the manner in which bursaries are awarded.

[sunnyweatherplease]

OP - probably better to ask the school, rather than on here! Good luck.

[middleclassonbursary]

Little nothing stops you applying for a bursary. Most schools have their bursary policy clearly published on their website. As an Oxbridge grad you can obviously read and understand information as well as I can if not better. You have to do your homework, talk to bursars ask around but it's within the capabilities of most parents.
Are the parents at my DS's school a particular subset of society? You tell me, with fees coming in at 34k PA and many have two children there some 3-4 you don't have to be a Nobel prize winning mathematician to work out that the majority who don't receive a bursary are not on the minimum wage. As far as I understand only 1% of the UK population earn £100 000+ these are the sort of people! who can pay large school fee bills so I suppose yes they are a "subset of society."

[LittleRobots]

Wow. Our income is 20-30 grand and we assumed were too well off for a bursary but have very little at the end of the month ourselves. Even with full fees paid we'd struggle with uniforms, activities etc.

I was Oxbridge educated. My daughter appears similarly bright and I'd love her to have private school opportunities but had no idea people on 87 grand could get a bursary at some schools!! (gosh if they're the 'poor' ones in that school its a very particular subset of society. Even with 34 in school fees they'd have more left over than most families earn! Very lucky.)

[middleclassonbursary]

married may I suggest you take some proof reading lessons. I clearly stated that if I paid the full whack then I would only have £250 PCM left to live on which is obviously ridiculous therefore I cannot afford the fees and the school clearly agrees with me. I am completely unable to see why you have a problem with my DS receiving one especially as you are not subsidising it, don't know my DS and do not know if we have any viable alternatives where we live. So I can only assume that your hostility to our receiving a bursary when you have so little information is underpinned by jealousy.
Over the years I have told many people about bursaries either face to face on on forums like MN I am keen to encourage others to apply but you are the first person to react in such a hostile and uninformed way.

[Labro]

Ds is on a substantial bursary. I have found amongst friends an attitude of 'how did you manage that' yet they wouldn't dream of asking or applying because they assume things about bursary assistance.

Each school has very different criteria for allocating bursaries, the only similarity being that they may use a standardised form. After that, it all depends what their agreed policy is.

For example, currently ds is at a prep school on a 70% bursary, 10 miles down the road, with exactly the same financial declaration, he was offered 25%.

The bursary middleclass ds is on is defined by the school. If their policy is that applications are open to all then she is as allowed as the next person to apply and have the school decide according to their published criteria, it can't become a problem for other parents in the country that she qualified for a particular school on a particular income according to a particular policy!

That would be like me saying ' I'm applying to x senior school for my ds and its middleclass fault that x senior school has a different policy to her ds school'

There is no uniform policy around bursaries, so one school could have a policy whereby they only offer them to very set criteria (tends to be 'foundation' schools' ) or they could have a policy which allows supposedly 'well off' parents to apply for their style of education. Only the school decides who does and who doesn't qualify, not the parents.

In the op case, it also depends on her dd schools policy for financial assistance to existing pupils and how big theit financialpot is and even how many other parents choose to apply for assistance.

I didn't play any kind of game to get ds his bursary, everybody is welcome to fill in the forms and let each individual school decide.

[marriedinwhiteisback]

Middleclass you have made my day! Jealous of your bursary - am I supposed also to be jealous of the 250pcm per month you have left over?

Totally agree with poster who raises the issue of founding principles and philanthropy. Absolutely how our London day schools have worked and absolutely the reasons why my dh and I would consider contributing to a bursary.

[middleclassonbursary]

If you can read you can go onto the website of any independent boarding school and read their bursary policy. One parent of boy at my DS's school told me that their DS had found the school himself, contacted the bursar and arranged for him and his parents to go and have a look round and meet the bursar to discuss bursaries. He was in an average state comp and was fed up with it. Plenty of parents from all backgrounds and situations are ambitious for their children and see a top quality education as the way forward and do look around to see what they can find. I inform and encourage many parents I meet about bursaries. I'm have never once said they should be the preserve of the middle classes who've fallen on hard times I agree they should be for all whatever their situation be it good or bad. But frequently the response I get is 1. I wouldn't want my DC to full board, or 2. I'd feel uncomfortable in that environment so the idea is being rejected by the parents themselves.
The other problems that schools like my DS's has is that by starting at yr 9 unlike CH they can't go into primary schools and spread the word about their bursaries and are unlikely to be welcomed with open arms in state comps etc.
Its forums like this that make people aware of what's on offer and that can only be a good thing. But sadly many people make sweeping and incorrect statements about whose eligible for a bursary and who isn't thus putting off those who don't know even further.
The biggest tragedy in my opinion is that a bursary has become in the majority of schools a scholarship by another name. Thus excluding children who for a variety of reasons don't shine. lm proud that my DS's school and a smallish group of other don't do this bursaries are available to all who meet their general admission criteria.

[Shootingatpigeons]

marriedinwhite There is a similar thread going on elsewhere.
I think though that our experience in London day schools may be different. At my DDs school and places like Westminster etc they put a lot of effort into reaching out to local schools and teachers to identify the disadvantaged bright children who would most benefit from the opportunity. Our experience like yours are of the bright children who get the benefit of bursaries being in real need. The girl with a single parent father who works nightshifts driving a taxi, the carer, the family that has been broken apart by bereavement and mental illness.

When I was touring the Boarding Schools even with friends who could afford to pay, if you have a DC who is bright or has a talent , you could play off different schools to get the best scholarship. If they have the money to spend on scholarships, bursaries etc and you are less part of a community in which you can effectively seek out need you can see they might be less concerned about the extent of need and more about getting clever / talented bums on seats. I suppose it depends how they interpret their duty to the original philanthropic founding aims.

[middleclassonbursary]

Just over 15% of children are on bursaries at my DS's school the average bursary is 66%. I'm sure they would like more but 66% on £34 k is a substantial reduction to fund for 5 yrs.

[middleclassonbursary]

No I have never said I was poor if you read what I wrote above or how difficult it is being rich I just said I couldn't afford 34k a year. Just as I can't afford a 1.3 million pound house (not that I'd want one) or to go to the opera every night it's just fact nothing to do with moaning about how poor I am. I'm not stealth boasting either frankly I don't boast in general and why would I boast about that size income because frankly it's nothing to boast about. I'm being challenged on my need for a bursary and I'm stating facts.
I'm under no illusions we are wealthy by many peoples standards but money does not make you a better person or a happier person.

[friday16]

On £87000 a year

Another stealth boasting private school parent who can't shut up about how difficult it is being rich.

[middleclassonbursary]

"If you only have one child I think you could have got better value."
Am I missing something here you don't know where my DS goes to school, you don't know where I live and you don't know how big our bursary is. I doubt I could have got better value for money, I know I there isn't a better school for him in the whole of the UK let alone locally,
"I am more than happy to subsides children in genuine need"
Unless you are contributing to my DS's school bursary fund which I doubt because you would know its open to all then you are not subsidising my DS, secondly there are many ways a child can have a genuine need of a place at my DS's school. On £87000 a year it is not possible to pay fees of £34000 once we'd paid the £3000 a term by the tine we'd paid our rent utilities petrol a very large bill for us as we're rural rates etc we have £25O PCM to live on that by the way is family if three my other DS's bus fare lunch money cost £125 a month.
married it strikes me that you are jealous that we have been fortunate to get a bursary.

[TallulahMcFey]

I think good luck to any one who gets a bursary. I didn't even know they existed but certainly wouldn't begrudge any one anything. After all, obviously anyone can apply and each case is considered on its own rights by the school or panel so why would anyone else have anything to say about it?

[marriedinwhiteisback]

Well then we must be exceptionally lucky to have had excellent, top five schools, locally for two children for a total of 36k per annum. But we would never have contemplated boarding school.

However if you only have one child I really think you could have got better value. I'm afraid I do have issues with bursaries for families earning 87k and who have one child being awarded a bursary. I'm more than happy to subsidise children in genuine need but with that sort of income I just don't think your child is in particular need, especially with two educationally motivated parents.

I just don't think you have cut your cloth whereas I think the second poster with an income of 60k has. Also I think the OP finds herself in unexpectedly straitened circumstances and I don't think the child should suffer because of her parents' altered circummstances although in those I would expect to release my capital and pay my own childrens' way.

The moral is that private education is very expensive and if parents cannot guarantee they can commit for the duration at the beginning then perhaps they should think twice. We wouldn't have started if we hadn't been certain of the income/capital to pay the bills until they were 18.