Grammar school - tutor or not?

[KitZacJak]

We looked around the local grammar school and my son really liked it. I think he could pass the 11+ but less than half that pass get in.

I was planning on just familiarising him with the papers so he knows what to expect. But part of me feels that by not tutoring I am not giving him the best possible chance especially as a lot of grammar pupils come from local prep schools that provide in school tutoring. On the other hand, I don't want him to feel under pressure.

What do other people think?

[Kenlee]

I cant agree more well said LaQueen...

Furthermore does anyone realize the damage they do to their children if they are over tutored and over tired. I have first hand experience and when a child is pushed and pushed and then pushed some more they tend to burnout....

Im not saying it will happen to all Over tutored children but there is that risk. Where parents would say at Primary s/he did so well...now they dont want to work...at all....I see its like a marathon you dont have to go full pelt all the time. When tutoring is needed get in that expert help firefight the problems. At least that way they may finish the race...

Although often enough sitting down with them and working it out together is way more fun than doing that extra hour at work or talking to your mates. I know many will say that's tutoring and it is but your kid appreciates your help. So they want the attention and thus want to do it. So in their minds its good not a bad thing.

BTW if you are a tutor please don't just force the kids to rote learn...I think the role of a good tutor is to make the child enjoy what they are being taught. I suppose that is my line distinction on over tutoring.

Sorry for hijacking the thread but I do think these things need to be considered if you want your child to be tutored.

Dont forget if you over tutor and they become over tired upset and resentful .....

Then wait and see if the Crash and Burn...I've seen many Aces fall .....

[BetsyBidwell]

agree with laqueen

i knew my kid was clever enough. He jsut needed to know how to show it

[summerends]

VR can be used to measure different types of ability. In one superselective, which may even be the one you are referring to, one year the test included more sequences etc, another year it was apparently more biased towards vocab knowledge. A level playing field is never going to happen as some children will be more exposed to a wider range of vocabulary than others. It would be better if the primary schools in areas where grammar schools are an option simply started after school clubs for all, teaching the same pattern recognition skills that private preps do. A lot of theses tests are quite good fun I hear and would serve to expand vocabulary for those who may not be exposed to much reading etc. The teachers might even pick up some unsuspected bright sparks.

[tom2468tom]

Intensive pressure sees wrong but preparing a child to do their best with help and past papers etc seems perfectly fair - is it a case, as with most things, of keeping a balance and sense of proportion?

I admit that I am as likely as anyone to find it hard to maintain a sense of proportion when it comes to my children!

[teacherwith2kids]

Summerends,

As the 11+ in our area is VR, which is meant to be a measure of 'ability' rather than 'knowledge', then theoretically there is nothing to 'teach' during the test itself as it should come down to the ability of the child IF the playing field is level.

NVR - classic 'IQ' testing - would, I agree, probably be a better discriminator in this regard. I don't know why it isn't used locally - perhaps it is [contracry to popuylar belief] even more tutorable. Or perhaps it does not discrimiate between the 'top' 0.1% and the rest - I really am talking a very superselective here, with an effective catchment up to 40-50 miles, covering parts of at least 5 counties.

[summerends]

Teacher, I was n't thinking you would necessarily be the tutor but might combine your principles and contacts to set one up whilst everybody waits for a tutor proof system.
One could however argue that it can't be too difficult for anybody with natural teaching skills to teach a bright kid since theoretically we would be expecting them to teach themselves during the exam if nobody was tutored

[AcrylicPlexiglass]

I think grammar schools are a dreadful concept and should be shunned by all right thinking people. However, if I felt differently and wanted my child to take and pass the 11+, I would certainly get a tutor unless I felt supremely confident that I could offer similar help myself. Most kids seem to spend years (well, about 2 years anyway) doing practice papers and being drilled on how to pass the exam so presuambly this makes a difference. Children who fail the 11 plus generally feel utterly crushed and crap and think they have failed their parents. I would want to avoid this at all costs so would get a tutor.

[teacherwith2kids]

Summerends,

That assumes that I would be any good at teaching Verbal reasoning in a totally isolated fashion - which I suspect I wouldn't be (just because I'm a teacher doesn't mean that I can teach everything equally well)....

[Bemused33]

I have decided of ds wants to do I will tutor from a bit earlier but not year 3

[Bemused33]

There is a ridiculous level of tutoring here. From year 3 in some cases.

Dd asked to do the eleven plus and we said yes and did about three hours of practice papers.

She passed. Not comfortably her marks are close to the cutoff but we are 97% sure we should be ok should she choose to go. Open morning is on Wednesday and she liked it last year.

[summerends]

Teacher, your principles are commendable but you may be comfortable pursuing them because it is not too much of a risk for your DD since you have a strong alternative school and / or she is one of the brilliant ones who probably won't be phased by exam conditions and she has the advantage of a parent who is a natural didactic. Some might think that your principles will also give her an excuse if she fails.
Most people end up tutoring ( whether by parent or other) to give the child who might be anxious or careless in the exam a comfort margin by learning exam technique.
You could always consider setting up a free post school tutoring class for some of these less privileged kids. That would be a principled action with real impact.

[Kenlee]

All I can add is that if he is suited to a grammar then for goodness sake tutor him. Grammar school is for the bright be they from rich parents or poor parents.

I dont agree with the tutoring system that is fast becoming a part of Grammar entry. Although Im not agaisnt tutoring for understanding.

I do understand that if you dont you do run the risk of being on an unequal footing.

The main criteria then is not about tutoring but if he is suitable for that school. Will he enjoy it and is he bright enough to keep up with the academic work so he can utilize the other options available. If so tutor if not save the money and go on holiday...

[SacreBlue]

I think choose a school that is suited your child's ability/interests and be wary of tutoring if it has the effect of putting your child under a strain that is unnecessary or puts them off learning.

[BetsyBidwell]

Heres the thing.
If he belongs there and is clever then tutor, all it means is he practices the weridy questions.
If he is not clever enough OR doesnt want to go then DONT do it.

silk purse sows ear etc

[teacherwith2kids]

It depends on your outlook and other options, really.

DD is doing the 11+ for a superselective. She has not been tutored - because the pervasive tutoring industry locally has completely perverted the grammar school entry, making it much more about who can afford the tutoring rather than who is actually the brightest.

I can't, ethically, square it with myself that I should give DD even more advantages (she already comes from a MC, well-educated home full of books, and goes to one of the 'better' state primaries due to where in town we live) by also buying her tutoring - which the equally bright kids from other areas, from less privileged backgrounds [indeed, the very children for whom the gramar was first endowed] cannot afford.

She is thus learning, the hard way, that depite being one of the very brightest children in her year group, with a Y5 CATs score which is very rarely achieved, she is unlikely to get a place at the grammar - and thus learning that in some cases, for us as a family, ethical principles are more important than personal gain. DS had the same experience at the same age, although his Y5 CATs were slightly less statospheric so he probably stood slightly less chance in the first place.

[dopeysheep]

I would definitely say yes. Get a tutor assessment and then some tutoring. Seems logical.

[Slipshodsibyl]

Some practice at home supplemented with 6 or so weekly sessions with a reputable and experienced tutor seems like common sense to me and certainly wouldn't count as over tutoring or excess pressure.

[ErrolTheDragon]

It is an odd concept to me that a pass to a grammar school is not a pass if only half get in.

in our area there are very few grammars. These have a catchment; anyone within it who gets the pass mark will get a place, but then there are a certain number of residual places which children from out of catchment can try for. So most of these will pass (you'd be daft to try for a residual place with a child who wouldn't) but only a small number get places. This probably isn't the scenario the OP has, but its one way that it happens.

[ThreeBeeOneGee]

Teaching a ten year old exam technique is never wasted anyway; it is a useful skill for secondary school assessments and public exams.

[ShellingPeas]

Why wouldn't you? You wouldn't sit a driving test never having driven a car would you? I'm not talking about endless hours of drilling and practice, just familiarisation so that they know what to expect in the tests and can perform under time pressures. If you have a realistic assessment of your Ds's ability and think he could cope then do it.

[ThreeBeeOneGee]

I prepared DS1 for the 11+ myself. He isn't superbright so I don't think he would have got in without my coaching. He is now in Y9 and really happy there; not struggling at all, probably in the top 30% of the year but not in the top 10%.

DS1 is highly able and needed no coaching, just a bit of familiarisation that he did himself really. He has only just started Y7 so too early to tell where he sits within the year group.

[racingheart]

Mogul, the pass mark reflects the fact that the child is bright enough to cope with and thrive at a grammar school. The half who don't get in are the ones who got the lower end of that score.

Depends on the school, but if it's very popular or super selective, I'd get a tutor. It's not just familiarisation with VR and NVR papers, it's about speed of completion in some schools. If you are really confident about going through the papers with him and helping him pick up speed, no need to pay, but some prep will be an advantage as he will be competing against children who have been tutored extremely hard for ages, who may not necessarily be as bright as him, but are primed for the exam.