North London Grammar School entrance exams. V Tough?

[likestoplan]

Hello
I was wondering if anybody has an info on how the application for the Grammar schools work, and how hard / competitive the exams are?
Specifically looking at Henrietta Barnett School (Girls), Queen Elizabeth's grammar school (boys) and Latymer. I understand you have to live in Barnet to apply to the first two, but Latymer's catchment area seems to the whole of North London! Is this correct? Could you apply to multiple selective schools, but do they not accept you if you dont put them as first choice (ie Latymer no.1, Henrietta no.2)?

All three seem to have different entry tests; any info on the test would be great, as well as guidance on whether coaching required or how competitive the different schools are.
School places very stressful.

[jayspriya]

Thank you, Tissunnyupnorth . Very useful info. My son is preparing for QE thsi year. Fingers crossed. Hoping he gets into !

[wickerlampshade]

HBS has about 2700 applicants for about 90 places with no geographical restrictions

[Moominmammacat]

As to whether these exams are "hard" or not who knows. QE boys has a vast number of places, the selective states are harder to get into than any of the privates. Plenty of people 'round here get all the privates and none of the states. Yes, QE boys is full of clever Asians but they are the ones who have got through the exam. That doesn't make it skewed. Some do tutor to high heaven but with my first DS, we did three papers a day (yes, three hours a day) from Sept to Nov of exam ... and that was it. He was co-operative in a way my other children weren't and it worked for us. 10 years down the line all my state educated children are in the same unis as their primary school chums who went private. Speed and accuracy is all I have to say about the exam. And I certainly wouldn't call any of my children super-bright.

[kiNmum]

Wow thats very good answer

[Greenleave]

What we noticed was yes, massive skew toward Asian at both rounds for the North selective state schools. I was waiting for my daughter finishing her round 2 exam and watching a PE section in Henrietta Barnet and every girl was Asian. Speaking of being Asian ourself.

[whataboutbob]

Not wishing to set the cat amongst the pigeons, and I’m not trying to goad anyone, but could one reason be the high number of educated people in India who have found that there is a lack of prospects there to match their aspirations, and have decided that their children will have better opportunities in the UK provided of course they get a good education?

[Greenleave]

We are South east Asia so cant give you the answer, South East Asia countries are known of being “helicopters/tigers” even I have never considered myself as one(mainly because my children dont see parents much during the week as both work ridiculous hours plus travelling.

[Lenazayka]

There are plenty of people ( native people of England) who never heard about grammars. They happy how they live and only know that indies not affordable or even if they have money they prefer spend for own pleasure than invest into the children. Moreover, they do not have an idea what means a university degree, college and that it.

Parents of those Asian children much clever. They came here for the best life and future their children. They put a lot of efforts to teach own children.

Unfortunately, we do not see a future for our DC without grammar school. This is stability, education, discipline and wide knowledges.

When we went to QE open evening this year we have not noticed any difference in relation of the nationality. All we saw we’re: confident smart young gentlemen who know what they want from life.

[Amaaboutthis]

I think that there are some valid points here. I don’t think that it’s just that the Asian parents are more invested in their children’s education. I know many families, both Asian and non Asian who won’t put their children forward for the QE and HBS exams because of concerns that the school is too monocultural.

When I grew up both of the schools were ethnically diverse with a range of children from all kinds of ethnic backgrounds, I had lots of friends at both. Aspirational local parents now actively choose either independent schools, faith schools or good comprehensives rather than go down the QE, HBS route as they don’t want their children to be in such a minority - all would be very happy to be in the school if it were more mixed.

Obviously that’s not a problem for the schools, they’re getting highly focused, bright, ambitious kids but it’s not fair to say it’s because only the Asian parents are ambitious. It’s because other parents, including in my experience many British born Asian families have concerns that it’s very monocultural and would like more ethnic diversity.

[whataboutbob]

Amaad- I was tentatively suggesting why there is a disproportionate number of kids of Asian, especially subcontinental Asian origin in selective schools. It is well reported that India has created an aspirational MC, but often without the job opportunities, stable institutions etc to meet the aspirations. This may explain the huge push firstly to come here and second to secure quality education for the second generation. Possibly once families have been in UK longer a more nuanced view of school choices/ education may occur for some.

[FanDabbyFloozy]

I agree some British born Asians are
also turning away from QEB, HBS, Tiffin and such schools.

Many Asian parents see the academic success of their children as their own personal achievement. I think that's less prevalent among British parents.

Whether British or otherwise, some parents go to extreme lengths to ensure the child "succeeds". A colleague has had her child tutored since year 2 for selective secondary school. She will no doubt tutor her once she's in one of these schools and then continue to pay for additional help at university (help with tutorials or dissertations). Then what? The music stops some time and it's probably when these children make it to the workforce for the first time.

No wonder that there is a mental health crisis among our children and young adults.

[peteneras]

"A colleague has had her child tutored since year 2 . . .Then what? The music stops some time and it's probably when these children make it to the workforce for the first time. . .No wonder that there is a mental health crisis among our children and young adults."

Huh! That's absolutely nothing at all. In fact, your colleague should be thoroughly ashamed of her/himself for waiting five or six years before starting the "tutoring".

I personally "tutored" both my DC since Day 1 - i.e. the day they were born, and if anyone wants to know, I'm mightily and absolutely proud of it. Got to say though, all the "tutoring" or the "music" as you put it, abruptly stopped on Day 1 when elder child started secondary grammar school - yes, in north London - and younger child stopped even earlier aged 10 when he left for boarding school, and yes, giving up the already secured famous north London grammar, QEB, in the process.

Both DC now happily integrated into the workforce with absolutely no mental health problems whatsoever - the years of "tutoring" they have had, the unshakable rock solid foundation they stood on (and still standing on today) was more than enough to see them sailed through primary/secondary/university education and now contributing to society.

The only "mental health" crisis that exists anywhere today is perhaps right here in this household with no one else around to listen to my "music" anymore. Guess I've to listen to them myself.

[FanDabbyFloozy]

@peteneras - you know I don't mean tutoring to get into a particular school which is in line with their ability level.. I'm taking about tutoring to get the child to a school where the standard and expectations is higher than the child can cope with. It's then that parents panic in year 7, restart the tutoring and never stop..

I have DC at highly selective schools. The first is a lazy sod half the time, but keeps up easily with the class. No tutoring required though after 11+. I help at home if they are struggling but they don't often ask and I don't check their homework at all.

[Greenleave]

[grin]@peteneras

It must be extremely sensitive for any non-Asian parents to discuss the topic especially on public forum like this one to say what they truly think.

I didnt see many Black, White, South East Asian in either 11+ rounds even in the couple of mocks we took. My assumption was the competition is so fierce, it forced out other culture family even from trying( even from mocks, from trying at all).
I dont agree that only “Indian”(or look alike) parents are competitive though, South East Asian parents are known for it. Many “white”(or look alike) parents are very competitive too. However more in all aspects not just academic. Thats my 2 cents.

[whataboutbob]

@peteneras how do you tutor a newborn?