"Gifted and Talented" - could somone please explain this to me as I'm really not getting it and feel quite cross and I'm not a pushy mum, at all!!

[sandyballs]

Honestly I'm not. But please explain how a child who absolutely hates PE and any form of exercise can be identified as "Gifted and Talented" in PE, yet a child who has represented the school in cross country, athletics, basketball and netball, done very well indeed in all of them, and was picked for the teams through trials, yet is not identified as "Gifted and Talented" for PE.

Am I missing something?

[seeker]

could this other child be particularly talented at one particular sport?

[StarlightMcKenzie]

PE is probably a subject where the child can have talents displayed outside of the school sports.

A friend of my was hopeless at team sports but regularly won sailing and team sailing competitions. She was considered talented. Her school recognised that though as puting her on the G&T register meant they could allow her to go for time off to sail extra 'special' lessons

[auntevil]

With really tired with the notion of raw talent.
DS1 loves sport and tries so very very hard. He's OK - gets in some teams, but not all that he would like.
DS2 - couldn't give a monky's, but has an annoying gift of being able to turn his hand to any sport he tries - or is made to try. Doesn't bother to try out for any team.
I remember a documentary on professional sportsmen where they tried their visual acuity and manual dexterity on different tests, and tried them at other sports. The top athletes performed significantly better at all the tests and sports they had never tried before than the average result.
This will also be similar to prior to the olympics where UK PLC held open days for tall sporty types within an age range. They tried them out and put some in for special training in the sports that they thought they would be good at.
Can't remember who, but 1 athlete was chosen at this event, given a new sport and won a medal within the 4 years. That is natural talent

[TallulahMcFey]

My daughter is in a gifted and talented maths group of 8 children in her year 6 class in a year of 60 children. My elder daughter has been identified several times as gifted and talented in things like science, languages, music and maths. We all know that neither of them are gifted and talented in anything other than the government definition. They are both clever children but someone has to be at the top end of the class. They aren't clearly at the top of the class, well ahead of the others and finding things so easy that they need extra work and events to hold their interest. They are fortunate enough to find school relatively easy and do not need any extra money spent on them and we feel the money would be spent of truly gifted and talented children (not 10 per cent of a year) and the bottom end of the class. They are happy to take the benefits from any selection - usually trips and extra usually quite fun classes - but we don't feel that they are gifted (which is academically) or talented (sports, music etc).

[choccyp1g]

For the posters who said "it doesn't matter it is just a list".
At DS school, the ones identified as G&T at a combination of 2 particular subjects are getting taken on a special trip to the Harry Potter World.

My DS is gutted to not fit the criteria, as he is G&T in Harry Potter.. could do Mastermind in all the crazy detail, and quote you long chunks etc.etc.

[TallulahMcFey]

Incidentally, my eldest was a bit put out when she got the only A star in GCSE music, yet when it came to giving out awards of excellence in certain subjects, someone else got the music one. Sometimes these things don't seem particularly fair or thought through but best not to worry about it and just be happy that she is as able as she is.

[ReallyTired]

"At DS school, the ones identified as G&T at a combination of 2 particular subjects are getting taken on a special trip to the Harry Potter World."

That truely stinks. It sends out a terrible message to all the children at that school. Why do gifted children need extra treats? Its a complete waste of public money.

Clever children are not fundermentally better human beings and many teens would love a trip to Harry Potter World. There would be more justification for taking children with major special needs for a treat to Harry Potter World. (Ie. the child who under goes several painful operations inorder to manage his cerabral palsy or the child who is losing his sight or hearing or the child who has been hospitalised with anorexia)

[TallulahMcFey]

Incidentally, my eldest was a bit put out when she got the only A star in GCSE music, yet when it came to giving out awards of excellence in certain subjects, someone else got the music one. Sometimes these things don't seem particularly fair or thought through but best not to worry about it and just be happy that she is as able as she is.

[steppemum]

our school sends home a sort of mini report at half term and end of term. Their NC levels in reading, writing, maths and science are on there.

Each subject is marked as SEN, below average, average, above average or gifted and talented.

The label is directly connected to the level. ie, average NC level for age = average, plus 1 level (or maybe 2, don't know exactly) = above average; and plus (3 or 4 or whatever the criteria is) = gifted and talented.

That way it isn't arbitrary, it is based on something. So dd1 who loves maths and won the maths whiz cup twice last year is marked as above average but NOT G&T, because her NC level wasn't high enough.

But in previous school we were told it was top 10% of school regardless of level because that was the way they highlighted who needed different lessons, and that would vary from school to school. So you could be in a class of bright kids and not classed as G&T and move schools and be in a class of not bright kids and be classed as G&T. (I never understood that system, prefer our current way)

[landofsoapandglory]

I think the G&T register is a load of old hat TBH, even though both of my DC are on it.

When DS1 was in Yr7 he was at level 8 for English, and was at the top of the top set, but the head of English(who was also the G&T co-ordinator)didn't think he should be on it. His teacher had a battle with her to get him on it, it didn't bother me, but the teacher said he should be recognised because at their school they get to visit universities, theatres and other places if they are on the G&T register. He did prove his worth of being in it, he won local and regional writing competitions and came top of the school in both English Lit and Lang GCSE exams.

DS2 was put on it for science and sport, we had no idea he was on it for science until he was in Yr9.

I think in your position I might ask for an explanation from the PE teacher.

[SanityClause]

Your DS should meet my DD1, choccyp1g. She knows everything about HP, and can also quote huge chunks of it, not to mention Potter Puppet Pals and A Very Potter Musical!

[friendlyface12]

Different teachers I suspect (I'm an English teacher). Teachers are asked to add to the G&T list. Using their knowledge of the students and recent grades. It may be that one dd teacher was more on the ball than the others. Perhaps her PE teacher was absent when deadline for list went out? You could make an appointment/email to flag up the anomaly with the head if you feel like you want to.
There's no formula to it, just teacher's judgements. Don't worry, I think you said the right thing to dd.

[diabolo]

G&T is a joke. The most talented student artist where I work isn't on the G&T list for Art, nor even included on the Art Leaders programme (20 or so kids go and teach at the Primary schools nearby).

She is talented, a role model, never in trouble, personable and very upset that she has been overlooked.

The art teacher has "favourites" and she isn't one of them. Disgraceful.

[TheFallenMadonna]

We don't have G&T any more. We have "more able". Only it is a blanket label, and it is solely based on average KS2 Maths and English point score. Which means it's not subject specific, not even to Maths and English. I find it unhelpful. And poorly understood.

[Pantone363]

Maybe the DS hates sports but sprints ridiculously fast when he does have to and is actually G&T. Or throws a javelin bloody far or something.

But G&T is bollocks anyway, our head goes out of her way to avoid discussing it with parents, nobody knows if their own child is on the register and its very much a box ticking exercise.

[IDK]

Incidentally, my eldest was a bit put out when she got the only A star in GCSE music, yet when it came to giving out awards of excellence in certain subjects, someone else got the music one.

We had a similar situation in another subject. The teacher was always telling DS how good he was, a natural, his best student in recent years. He then gave the Year 11 prize to someone else! I enquired about it and was told that it was based on the mock exam result in January.
It backfired on the teacher though. It made DS have a rethink and he is now going to read a different subject at University. The winner of the prize, meanwhile, left the school after Year 11 to go to college. So the teacher cannot boast about either one now. Plonker.

[BooksandaCuppa]

steppemum - please tell me your school doesn't really class SEN as akin to 'below below average' in its attainment scale.

If it does, it's truly shocking that they don't know that SEN does not mean 'low academic ability?

I have just come back from ds's yr 7 parents evening having been told he is top of the top set in English, maths and science. And he also has SEN (Asperger's) with a statement to go alongside that.

I'm pleased he's not at 'your' school!

[steppemum]

books, I just got a report out to check

they put SEN if the attainment in that subject is so many levels below average for age and therefore child is getting or needs extra support in that subject. So I assume that could mean you could get SEN for say maths and G&T for say English.

The levels are of course private to parents. They started it I think because it takes the opinion of the teacher out of it and shows the parents a clear line compared with where they should be.
report also has a place for effort and attitude.

This seems to be different from an SEN statement, as this is only looking at their attainment in certain areas. (English Maths and science)

School is actually very good with statemented children, we have quite a few and my friend's son is on the ASD spectrum and very happy and well catered for there. I assume on his report the levels are related to his academic acheivement, as the report doesn't refer to or comment on his statement. (report is very short, proper reports only come out in summer)

I had actually not thought about it form that perspective at all, although I was initially surprised to see that they put SEN on. I will ask my friend tomorrow about ti and how she feels.

Thanks for raising that

[seeker]

Steppenmum- -please tell me this isn't a state school........

[steppemum]

yes state school. One of 6 in a federation, they all do it they are all rated as /getting towards being rated as outstanding.

Actually it is a brilliant school, the staff are great and the kids happy and as I said it has a good reputation for doing well with statemented kids. It is a very caring school and supportive. This isn't an attitude in the school, just a report stating where they are on NC level.

It seems to be becoming more common too, I have heard of a couple of other schools who have started to do the same thing. Mabe it is a new ofsted inspired trend?

The reason I quoted it was because it seems that they use the G&T in relation to NC level, and not arbitrarily given by a teacher to their favourite as some have said on this thread.

[seeker]

But SEN and G&T aren't NC levels! Please do something about this- it's outrageous!

[seeker]

And if anyone genuinely thinks that G&T status is arbitrarily awarded to teacher's favourites, then do something about that too. It's not supposed to be done like that.

[BooksandaCuppa]

Well it does seem very odd in the context of everything else you've mentioned about the school.

And I agree with your assessment of their intention with this kind of 'ranking' as being generally more helpful than how some schools choose their g and t lists.

My points still stands though that it is an incredibly strange way to a child's academic attainment. Ds is both SEN and g and t in at least two areas of the curriculum (he's SEN in every area of the curriculum - he can't stop being autistic!)

His school, btw, actually refer to g and t as 'advanced potential' and it's assessed by a mixture of Cats tests, sats results and ongoing assessment. And the 'reward' for being on this 'list' is things like week-long science masterclasses in the school hols. Trips to theme parks seem a little bonkers. More of a reward for being clever than an extension of potential.

[sandyballs]

Thanks for replies. I will email school tom, tried a couple of times today but deleted it as finding it very difficult to put into words without sounding like "one of those mothers" .

I'm very curious to know the criteria for choosing though as it obviously isn't the top 10% in each subject.

Friends boy is a very clever lad but sport isn't his thing, he's the first to say how much he hates it. And that is all sport, no interest in it at all. So now he will have opportunities for extra PE and wont want to do it.