Kingsdale Lottery - is it really random?

[TheWomanOnTheBus]

There is a rumour going round my DCs' primary that certain (other) primary schools are preferred in the lottery (to gerrymander the intake). I try and squash it by saying: don't be silly, its random how can it be ....

... but then I wondered how do we really know. Who carries out the lottery? The admissions policy says its supervised by someone from outside the school, but who? and how?

Anyone know?

[aliasPrickleandJones]

Sorry to dig up this old thread but as 1 March is looming and we are all sitting on the edge of our seats, I wouldn't mind a recap on what the allocation process is for Kingsdale.

I remember from somewhere that a 'reverend' picks the names randomly in the lottery. Is this true or is it done by some other way? Not sure how lotteries work TBH in the context of admissions. Is it the council that does it or the school?

[crazymum53]

This is for my local academy school which only has an intake of 120 and typically has 600 applications.
For the social and medical places you have to prove that this is the ONLY school that can meet the child's needs!
I believe that the 10% of specialist places is typical, as we were told when we were thinking about applying that the government had a limit of 10% but if the school has more than one specialism then it could be 10% per special subject. Hope this makes sense.

[crazymum53]

This is for my local academy school which only has an intake of 120 and typically has 600 applications.
For the social and medical places you have to prove that this is the ONLY school that can meet the child's needs!

[Blu]

Is that for Kingsdale, though, or for Crazy's local school?
I am surprised any school can put a limit of 2 on social and medical places - surely that goes completely against the whole ppoint of making sure that children with social/medical imperatives can get into the most suitable school? So, for e.g if it was the only wheelchair accessible school in the area, they would turn down 2 out of 4 wheelchair users ?

[TheWomanOnTheBus]

Just picking up on crazymums post above:

Medical and Social (limited to 2 places)
Siblings (typically 40 places)
Specialist places 10% (10-12 places)
Random lottery allocation (typically 60 places)

Jeez, such a complicated policy - and so, so, SO many applicants - for so few specialist (aka scholarship) places.....

[Blu]

Bibbity - have you had a letter about the Banding Tests yet?

[Blu]

We have asked the representatives of the school tasked with explaining this stuff at Open Days.
We have, separately and collectively over a number of threads, pored over the official policies and information supplied by the school
We have listened to a very experienced admissions expert, prh47 say that even he is of the opinion that said indormation is 'unclear' and should be referred
We have asked you, the parents of children AT the school, and you are unable to be more definite than 'not 100% sure' and 'I think'.

The satisfaction of pupils and parents who get there is not on doubt. The process by which they get there is unclear.

[bibbitybobbitybloodyaxe]

Yes yes yes, we all get it that all pupils at Kingsdale and their parents are beyond ecstatic at being there fgs.

The thread is about the ridiculous admissions process. No need to come over all defensive.

God, its like the blardy Stepford Wives of secondary education!

[isitnearlychristmasyet]

I am not 100% certain, but I am pretty sure that a scholarship does not confer automatic admission to the school. The child would have to get a lottery place in order to take up the scholarship, I think.

However, you must ring the school to check this out, as Chatter45 says. I am sure they will answer your questions thoroughly. Please do not rely on the heresay of a forum.

Another very happy pupil there in our family too.

[Blu]

Chatter45 - no-one is saying anything against the experience of children in the school.
Good to hear from someone who has been through the admissions process - can you explain the process of allocating scholarships and how that relates to the admissions Lottery? If you get a scholarship, do you automatically get a place?

[chatter45]

If you have questions about the admissions policy why don't you call the school? This is what I did when I was applying for my elder son two years ago. They couldn't have been more helpful. The Head of Music phoned us personally to talk through our queries and questions. Admittedly it took a day or two to get back to us - but the point is she did. My two sons (the second got in on a sibling place) are extremely happy at the school. What seems to be missing in all the speculation/ allegations and yes possible over selling of the school is that on a day to day basis - its an incredibly calm, warm and caring school. I have no idea about the allegations - nobody has until a report, if any, is published.
All I can go on is what my children tell me every day and what I see - very hard working,dedicated teachers and senior managers (with hugely supportive parents who are spoken to and consulted with on a monthly basis) who really respect and care for all the children. And it isn't hype - the class sizes are very small - which makes for a great learning environment.

[prh47bridge]

The whole scholarship thing seems very unclear to me and I've read it several times. I still can't figure out how it works. I think someone should refer this to the Schools Adjudicator on the grounds that the lack of clarity is in breach of the Admissions Code.

[TheWomanOnTheBus]

Going back to the main point of the thread .... admissions.

Thanks, everyone, for comments on lottery.

Curious though to see if anyone can explain how the admissions policy works witth respect to the music/sports scholarships.

Policy says:

A maximum of the equivalent of 15% of our Admission Number per year group will be designated for music or sports scholarships which qualify for use for entry to the school.

However, when you then look at the "scholarship oversubscription criteria" it says:

Applicants must reach full scholarship standard and be ranked in the top 15% of the School?s admission number in Year 7 for 2012 to secure an offer of a place based on scholarship criteria.

This suggests (because of the reference to "top 15% of the School's admission number" that you need to get to the right standard and be in drawn in the lottery in the top 15% of overall applicants.

But then it goes on to say:

the top 15% of scholarship applicants .... will be offered a place

which suggests something different (and more logical): that is, that the best 15% of scholarship applicants get a place irrespective of the lottery.

Can anyone confirm if the latter is in fact the case? As mentioned above, the staff at open days don't really seem to understand it either....

[bibbitybobbitybloodyaxe]

Sadly I can't really remember what was said on the local forum but I was very much struck by the apparent sincerity of the posters.

Otoh, there is very little chance of getting in to a reasonable co-ed school in my neighbourhood so, as I have said previously, I would be happy for my dd to get a place there. Results are not everything to me (I think this is where Kingsdale gets on my goat - I just want my children to go to a reasonable local school, it doesn't need to WOW me). I am sure that dd will thrive wherever.

[prh47bridge]

As I have said previously, JCQ regulations say that the results of the investigations must be kept confidential. The head cannot, therefore, publicise the results without breaching the regulations, leading to a further investigation.

I agree that publication of the results does not mean there was nothing wrong. It does, however, suggest that they failed to find evidence of the kind of widespread, systemic malpractice that was alleged.

The information I have seen suggests that students were given marks for coursework they failed to complete (without more information it is impossible to tell whether or not this is a problem), that students were allowed to correct their exam papers after the exam had finished (clearly wrong unless it was correcting the administrative details such as candidate number), that students arriving late were not quarantined (that is correct - they shouldn't be) and were allowed to continue the exam after other pupils had finished (which is exactly what is supposed to happen when a pupil arrives late). But, as I say, that is based on reports in the press so I don't know whether or not it is accurate.

It is true that some teachers will cheat to try and achieve good results. It has always happened and always will. I can give an example from my own school days, around 40 years ago.

[gingeroots]

I read the posts on the forum local to the school and some posts ( also deleted ) replying to a newspaper .
I did get the sense that there were a number of teachers ( not explained away by the normal summer turnover ) and that concerns were genuine .
The concerns about exams were ( from memory ) regarding completion of coursework and assistance given during the exam .

I would imagine that everything possible would have been done to prevent any investigation jepordising the awarding of qualifications this summer .
I don't actually regard the publication of results as evidence that the investigations found nothing wrong .
I am surprised that if nothing amiss was found that the head hasn't widely publicised this .

My own belief is that there is so much pressure on schools to meet league table criteria that schools will inevitably do all they can to get "good" exam results . some schools are better at working the system than others.
That belief is the real concern to me .

[Blu]

Actually, having read your info about what happens in these cases I am feeling a it about increasing conjecture about all this - presumably whatever the outcome, the matter was either a non-event or has been properley dealt with.

I can't remember enough about the detail from the local forum thread, so shouldn't pass on half remembered stuff.

The most important thing is that the students get credibility for their hard work.

[prh47bridge]

I am not trying to defend the school. I really don't know the details and, if these forum posts have been deleted, I can't find out. But I read the reports in the Evening Standard and other parts of the press and my immediate reaction was that, if the allegations were reported correctly, whoever was complaining clearly doesn't understand the procedures around exams, in particular what is supposed to happen if a student arrives late.

If you (or anyone else) has full details of the alleged malpractice I would be interested in hearing about it by PM.

[Blu]

I concur with Bibbity. The teachers who posted on a local forum did not attempt to remain anonymous - their identity was known.

A family member of mine who is a secondary school teacher says that fiddling GCSE results in ICT and Maths is 'rife'. It's bound to be tempting when teachers and schools reputation hangs on the overall results under the competitive environment of parental scrutiny and government targets, rather then on simply supporting the potential of individual children.

None of my wondering about what goes in in KD undermines my confidence that it is a good and happy school, and i'd be happy to send DS there.

[bibbitybobbitybloodyaxe]

Prh - some of the "teachers" posted on a local forum about the school just after they resigned. Their posts made pretty persuasive reading (ie. that they were utterly genuine and that they were blowing the whistle with very heavy hearts) and I had no reason to doubt what they were saying. Of course I know this means little in the anonymous world of the internet, but still, I did think it would take an exceptionally embittered couple of individuals to concoct the whole story and carry it through to posting on the web about it. And unlike on Mumsnet, name changing is not possible on that forum. The whole thread was deleted after a day or so, and it is impossible to discuss the school on that forum any more because the moderators are very concerned about libel.

[prh47bridge]

Having checked further, it seems highly unlikely that there will be any announcement of the result of the investigation. The JCQ regulations which govern malpractice investigations are clear that the work of the Malpractice Committee and their decisions are confidential, although in the case of serious malpractice they may share information with appropriate professional bodies such as GTC. So I suspect you will never know the outcome of the investigations.

It is, of course, the case that every school loses some teaching staff in the summer. Teachers tend to leave school at the end of term or between terms, with the end of the summer term being a popular choice. If a significant number of teachers left unexpectedly that could indicate a problem but when there are accusations flying around it is easy to interpret normal staff turnover as suspicious.

I note that one of the posters refers to "six whistleblowing teachers". I have seen nothing to indicate that the whistleblowers were teachers. Indeed, as some of the reported allegations appear to show the school following the rules correctly, I would be surprised if the whistleblowers were teachers. Of course, it could be that the reports in the press are wrong and the allegations actually made were all genuine breaches of the rules.

I would note, by the way, that neither the school nor the exam boards were the source of the stories in the local press. Most investigations into alleged irregularities receive no publicity at all. I therefore suspect that the information in the press came from the whistleblowers, which makes me wonder if they really have the best interests of the school and its pupils at heart.

To give some context, last year 106 penalties were issued to exam centres and 79 to individual members of staff for irregularities. I cannot find any statistics for the number of centres/staff investigated.

[gingeroots]

I'm afraid my suspicious mind makes me think that the investigation can't have completely exonerated the school ,otherwise that would have been said .

For the students I am hugely relieved that they got their exams ,but I'm left wondering why a number of teachers left and what the outcome of the investigations were .

And my son's school always publicises it's AS results ,so again ,absence of information makes me feel that they weren't good at Kingsdale .

But it's a school with an increasing reputation for excellence which will ( if it hasn't already ) result in that excellence being a reality .
And we need excellent schools .

[prh47bridge]

Priority for siblings is not at all unusual.

I may be wrong but I doubt there will be any formal announcement of the results of the investigation. As I said previously, I would take the fact that students received their results on time as showing that the exam boards were happy that there was no evidence of consistent malpractise. If they had concerns I would have expected them to delay the results for this school.

The sixth form re-opened in September last year so I presume students were only sitting AS this year.

[bibbitybobbitybloodyaxe]

Infact, Kingsdale is not no.1 on our list and wouldn't be no. 2 on our list if we didn't have girl then boy.

[bibbitybobbitybloodyaxe]

Crazymum - yes they do offer automatic sibling places. Which is very strange for a school with no catchment, so will accept pupils from anywhere in London (as I understand it) - and are therefore committed to giving places to all those random pan-London siblings as well.

Infact, I was surprised to discover this year that most secondary schools do give automatic sibling places - especially as I live in an area where there are still quite a few single sex schools.