Which independent secondary schools have scholarships which have real monetary value?

[stealthsquiggle]

This is pure research at the moment as we are a year or so off making decisions, but I am interested to know which schools have academic scholarships (note, not bursaries - non-means tested merit based is what I am interested in) which make any real impact on the fees? We are told that DS has the capability to win such a scholarship, but I am concerned that the head of his current school is focused on the ones which look good (i.e. are prestigious) and there is not much point him taking exams if we still wouldn't be able to afford the fees because the scholarship has no (or nominal) monetary value. We would be unlikely to qualify for means-tested bursaries.

All comments/opinions welcome. TIA.

[Ladymuck]

Pop down to the library and take a look at the Independent Schools Yearbook. It has a list. The one on my desk (07/08) indicates that the following schools give over 10% scholarships:-

Ackworth (up to 50%)
Ampleforth (6 up to 20%)
Bloxham (up to 50%)
Blundell (up to 50%)
Bootham (up to 50%)
Bradfield College (up to 15 at 10-50%)
Canford (10-50%)
Cheltenham College (up to 50%)
Christ College, Brecon (10-50%)
City of London Freemans (at least 10 awards up to 50%)
Clifton (max is 25%)
Culford (up to 25%)
Dulwich (10-33%)
Durham (up to 50%)
Eastbourne college
Felstead (up to 50%)
Fettes (up to 33%)
Framlingham (up to 30%)
Glenalmond College(10-50%)
Gresham's School (25-50%)
Haileybury (max 20%)
Hurstpierpoint (up to 50% of day fees)
Ipswich (up to 50%)
Kent College, Canterbury (up to 50%)
King Edwards School Birmingham (12.5-50%)
King William's College IoM, (10-50%)
KCS, Wimbledon (10-30%)
King's School, Bruton (10-50%)
King's School, Canterbury (up to 25%)
King's School Ely (up to 25% of day fee)
King's, Rochester 5 awards up to 30%
Kingston Grammar (up to 10 at 50%)

Ii got bored at this point, but you get the idea. HMC have an agreement not to go over 50% for a non-means-tested, the most prestigious schools don't go over a nominal amount but there are awards out there.
Tonbridge has one 50% academic scholarship but you can stack music/sports/academic scholarships. Caterham gives out scholarships equal to 10 sets of full fees across the intake with several scholarships of 30-50%.

[stealthsquiggle]

Ladymuck - Thank you so much. The value of MN, as ever. I shall do just that (although I can just picture the look on the librarian's face).

[cordyblue]

You have to think about what's happening now and into the future, NOT what's been the case for pupils currently at the school. With the charity commission guidelines, going forward very small academic scholarships will be the norm. So looking at what's happened last year or what's there for pupils currently at the school is not going to be helpful.

Think of it this way, you say you would not be eligible for a means tested bursary. If you're not eligible, it means you ARE able to afford the fees on the formula bursars use to work out bursaries. If you say you cannot, then you are putting holidays/cars/other items above the school fees. Or other things. What it is in particular does not matter, it's the fact that when some people scrimp and save and never go on holiday to pay the school fees, why should their fees be subsidising others who just put other lifestyle choices above the fees?

I am thrilled that small scholarships are the way forward as it means a better bursary system. And so more pupils will benefit. The "name" of the school should not matter one jot. It's what school would suit your child best that matters - surely??

[GrimmaTheNome]

If you're not eligible, it means you ARE able to afford the fees on the formula bursars use to work out bursaries.

You think? Surely there's a gap between eligibility and really being able to afford full fees. Personally I would think it better this gap be filled (and more bursaries in general) versus large scholarships - I found it slightly odd that DD and another girl were offered 30% off just for being a tadge cleverer even though they had absolutely no need of it (we didn't ask for it, they just award on the basis of results)

[stealthsquiggle]

Not qualifying for a bursary doesn't mean you can afford the fees - it just means that there are people even less able to afford them who have priority over you for what is a fixed fund. Since my private education was possible because of a 50% scholarship (my parents didn't ever have holidays/new cars/etc and yet would no way have qualified for an assisted place) I do think there is a balance between merit-based and means-tested relief from fees to be struck.

[zeolite]

Seeing that as a nation we've always expounded global positioning, if the quality of education provided is good enough, there are more foreigners able to foot full fees without charitable relief than school places, so scholarships should be unsullied by monetary considerations. We can't be protectionist about our schools, they have already become an export item, which boosts their results in turn. Universities have been in that place for a while.

We are the country of level playing fields after all. When we regain some of the living standards others are building with their better work ethic and fewer hang ups about social status, access to fee paying schools will become another consumer good of choice. Education changes lives, schools are only a lifestyle option. What sort of person gets hung up about the brand of watch they buy when they're late for most things?

[munstersmum]

You can search the Independent School Year Book online
www.isyb.co.uk/index.php

[cordyblue]

GrimmaTheNome - Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Bursary decisions are not based on income alone. It's a very very complicated and personalised formula based on what else is being paid for, where choices can be made (for example, if a second home is owned, the family would be expected to consider selling that or equity release to fund fees), and what costs for food/fuel/other expenses. If a family chooses to prioritise something else over an education they could afford if they really needed to that is not essential, well that is their decision.
What I mean is (completely made up figures here) if a family can pay their bills and live on £40,000 and they earn £60,000 after tax they would be expected to pay that £20,000 towards fees.
(THESE ARE MADE-UP FIGURES - not going to argue what people can or cannot survive on - that's for bursars to work out).
stealthsquiggle - My family survived on an income that was officially below the bread-line, and so I was lucky enough to get a full assisted place at school - but that was worked out after I was given the place, as bursaries now are. If your parents earned more, you obviously had more money in your family than I grew up with.
zeolite - I have absolutely no idea what you mean at all.

[stealthsquiggle]

Cordyblue - I am not playing "my upbringing was poorer than yours" ! We weren't starving, true. Not even close. However, my parents could not have afforded 100% fees for 3 of us. Fortunately we all had merit-based scholarships.

My statement about it being a fixed fund stands. The school cannot award what they don't have. Those on the breadline need the bursaries more than us, which is fine, but that leaves us falling between two stools, as it were. Hence the added attraction of such schools as do still offer substantial scholarships.

[mumoverseas]

DS had a scholarship of 10% when at prep school.
He is now at Hurstpierpoint and has an academic scholarship of approximately 30% of fees. From experience, that is really the maximum you can get except in very exceptional circumstances.

[stealthsquiggle]

I think 30% we could probably manage with

[Colleger]

Winchester offers nothing and does not negotiate. In fact if you already have a scholarship offer from another school you can't even sit the Eton or Winchester scholarship let alone negotiate.

[MABS]

yrp, Mos, 30% at Hurst is pretty much the max for a scholarship, do agree

[oshgosh]

I second Grimma's point about State Boarding schools but you have to research carefully because they are not homogenous. Some are selective and some are not, but the non-selectives usually still get pretty good results. Some have a majority of boarders and some only take a few boarders. Some have catchment areas and some don't.

The education, being State, is free so you only pay for lodgings. At our school it is currently about £10k per year.

[MABS]

totally agree oshgosh, the state boarding school near us is not at all good :(

[oshgosh]

Oh, you've sort of turned my argument on its head there MABS. I was trying to boast by stealth and say that ours, despite being a comp, is in amongst the best schools (Times Top 500).

[MABS]

oops sorry, the one near me is most definitely not I afraid :(

[oshgosh]

That's a shame because some of them are really good.
But, like I said, you have to research carefully.

[thomasbodley]

Charity commission privileges are going to be stripped from many public schools very soon. That's why they're all swapping from scholarships to bursaries and suddenly opening their facilities up to local state schools.

The Sutton Trust is lobbying hard and soon there will not only be a means test for public/independent school bursaries, but also a capital qualification.

I went to public school because my parents had been too. However, it was an enormous financial struggle for my parents (there are three of us) and it really wasn't worth it: we absolutely hated seeing our parents scrimping, and we resented being "poor" (which was a nonsense in real terms, although we didn't realise it at the time). We felt excluded from much of the life of the school, if not quite bullied. If you can't very comfortably afford the fees, the extras on your bill, and crucially, the lifestyle of your school, it's a recipe for unhappiness for both the child and the parents.

[stealthsquiggle]

Thomas I think your latter points depend very much on the school (and the child) - DBs and I all went through (day & boarding (DB1)) schools which my parents could only just afford (with scholarships) and it never once occurred to me to even ask about ski trips, expensive 'extras' etc, etc - but I didn't feel 'left out' at all.

We can't afford the "lifestyle" of DC's current school, in as much as we have neither a Baby Bentley nor a Rangerover, or a second home, the DC don't have ponies, and we both work (shock, horror), etc, etc - but we are by no means alone in that and I honestly don't think DS feels excluded because of it.

[mumoverseas]

DD's state boarding school is excellent and she has flourished since she has been there. Fees are reasonable too, about 12.5k pa which is less than half the price of DS's school.

[thomasbodley]

Stealth I agree that it depends on the school and the child.

However, as boarding school fees have climbed far beyond inflation in the last decade, so have the lifestyles of the people attending them.

Friends of mine who work at the more well-known public schools tell me it is now virtually unheard of, for example, for the son of a clergyman/doctor/vet/country solicitor to attend unless he's an only child and both parents work.

[LadyPeterWimsey]

I have also noticed that your bog-standard professional (vet/clergyman/solicitor) cannot now afford private school (esp boarding) fees unless both parents work and they don't have too many children. There were lots more very ordinary middle-class families when I was at a private secondary school 20 years ago then there are at DS's school, when they are all heading off to the Bahamas for half term.

Having said that, DS is completely cool with not being able to have that stuff because he does genuinely appreciate the education and intellectual stimulation he is getting.

[stealthsquiggle]

LOL at heading off to the bahamas for half term - at DS's school they seem to divide into three: those heading off to carribean-island-of-the-moment, those heading off to their houses in Rock/Padstow/Salcombe, and those muddling through with parents working and cursing the fact that we have a different half term to all other local schools, so a day or two's holiday club is out of the question (guess which category we fit into?!)

[Colleger]

You have to remember that a very large percentage of pupils were on the assisted fees scheme which ended in 1997 and places were generally filled by middle-class doctors, lawyers etc.

I've always wondered why parents insist on taking kids away on holidays during half term when they board. My kids want to be in their home and chill out and have some family time, not be stuck on a plane for 25% of the holiday!