The English Baccalaureate has really affected the League tables...

[MrsTweedy]

Is anyone else finding this fascinating? I am really surprised at how few pupils at well-regarded schools in my area have done what I would consider core subjects eg
Richmond Upon Thames

The Ebacc is basically English, Maths, a science, a language & history or geography with A*-C passes. These were compulsory in my day (okay I am ancient and did O Levels). It just shows how the curriculum has changed and how schools have been slanting it recently to improve their league standings on the previous benchmark.

I suppose it depends on which criteria you use to rate them ie either the EBacc or just 5 A-C GCSEs at the end of the day but it is certainly a surprising result in some cases.

[Horton]

I think it's a pretty stupid measure, too.

I did 11 O Levels (all at grades A or B which was considered pretty good at the time) and would not have passed this test. None were in a humanity as, frankly, I was not very good at those subjects and not at all interested in them and it would have benefited nobody had I been obliged to do one of them. I'd have been bored, I may have got a worse result (how would a C in history have been an enhancement to my life instead of an A in German?) and they would have been entirely pointless in my later working/personal life. I think I am not entirely ignorant of basic historical and geographical facts now, being a reasonably bright person who has picked stuff up along the way and, crucially, followed a well-rounded curriculum before I had to choose. I have had plenty of opportunity to pick up the essay-writing skills and critical appraisal elements of those subjects in other areas. It was far better for me to be able to do a second modern language and a third science option as well as being able to take art which was a welcome relief from the other academic options.

Equally, there may be children who are far better served (in terms of what they are interested in and good at) by doing two or more humanities instead of a modern language or a science option. And why should RE, Economics or Politics not be included as humanities? It seems to me that they teach similar skills to Geography and History.

I went to a highly academic school which required, as well as Maths plus English Lang and Lit, Physics, Chemistry, Latin and French. A good proportion of my year would have also taken French AO or Maths AO or both, having done their O Level(s) early. A high proportion of my academic cohort would not have opted for a humanity, preferring music, art, a third language or biology. I don't think any of those are soft options and I reckon a good half of my year would have failed to gain 5 A-Cs in the five required areas. This is a school where about 50% of the intake went to Oxbridge. There is no way those students were being failed by their options. So it's a very blunt tool and doesn't really give a sensible picture, even if all IGCSEs were accredited. Where Hampton School is concerned, I'm guessing that the 6% who are the happy possessors of an English Baccalaureate are the very bottom of all their classes and have therefore been entered for the GCSE instead of an unaccredited IGCSE. This may be right or wrong in terms of difficulty, but it would be v interesting to know.

Also, I would be very happy with a school in which children were encouraged towards 'traditional' subjects but I honestly can't see the value in being so prescriptive about what they must be. Five out of English, Maths, sciences, music, languages, humanities and art/history of art would seem a much more sensible way to measure things. Maybe with English Language and Maths being compulsory - you do really need those.

I'm quite delighted OTOH that no notice was given as it will be v v interesting to see what happens in the next few years with children's potential choices at GCSE.

[said]

Am I the only person who'd never heard of the English Bac until today? And it's only by reading this thread I realise what the press has been talking about (admittedly speed-read the Guardian). And my teen is in Y9 x 2. Fortunately, she's pretty much decided what she wants to do and they are Eng Bac compliant - lucky

[jenandberry]

I think it is a good idea and students of average ability upwards need to be guided towards more academic subjects.

I do think RE should be included in the humanities group if it is the full course and if it is taught as most LEAs requirer covering 2 world religions.

My understanding is that RE is not included because it is already a compulsory subject so there is no need to drive students towards it as there may be for History and Geography.

[noblegiraffe]

As far as I am aware, RE GCSE isn't compulsory. I think they have to do a short course in it, but my school seems to cover that with a few collapsed timetable days with outside speakers.

[snorkie]

I think the latest English GCSE specifications don't allow you to take language without literature any more.

[jenandberry]

Some study of RE is compulsory but some schools do cover that by doing as you say. Most schools do a short course option which I agree should not count towards the BACC. But the full course should IMO.

[MrsTweedy]

Alexandra93 - thanks for that! All solid subjects (except possibly as you say Business Studies may be easier!). I'm all in favour of people studying Welsh - I went to a Welsh University although I'm English. Surely if studying Welsh Language & Literature is easier because you speak the language then the same applies for English?

I admit to being out of touch with what is studied at GCSE now as ds is in yr 6 but obviously want him to go to a school that offers a well-rounded curriculum.

With regard to the Independent Schools and the new League Table, it's often more useful to use other tables such as the Times or Telegraph Top 200 Independent Schools a they don't all use the same exams.

[gingeroots]

Of course it's wrong to be talking in terms of children " failing to achieve the Eng Bac ".
Poor schools ,poor teachers ,poor students .
Now there'll be a rush to change options and force children who might be better off studying Geog and History to drop one for a language .
Most schools have learnt to play the game by entering students for GSCE equivalents .
And if this is done with the child in mind ( rather than progress up the league table )well and good I suppose .
But I do think the league tables should make it clear when the 5 A* -C at GCSE are achieved by equivalents .
And these tables do shed a little light on this practice .

[EdgarAleNPie]

EdgarAleNpie bell curves are not used when awarding examination grades - it is based on carrying forward standards from one year to the next, and is not that the top 10% get A, next 10% get B etc so your suopposition that because more candidates from independent/private schools take a subject it is harder to get an A in it is not correct.

surely if last years bunch were good, then that would make it harder? relative to other subjects?

anyway, i think the subject matter fairly challenging, certainly as much so as History or Geography.

notes was only kid to get A in alevel RS in my school that year :)<


can someone link to an article where all this is explicated? surely Gove didn't say that Gcse Re was copulsoary? my local school dosn't do it (i've checked in case i get asked again!)

[BelligerentGhoul]

The new English specs allow a single exam in 'English' OR a dual in 'Language' and 'Lit.' I think English counts or the dual counts - you can't take Lang without Lit.

[grovemum]

Mrs Tweedy, at my daughter's school Tiffin Girls they only hit 85% on the new English Bac. But they do not have any "soft" media or business studies options. They do Maths(2 x GCSE), English (2 x GCSE), the three sciences(separately), a modern language and an ICT subject which are compulsory. They then have take at least one of Geography, History and RS. Some girls skip GCSE French altogether and just go straight to AS. Also some might not be able to do geography or history if they choose art, music, drama, Latin etc. The girls do 13 or 14 GCSEs and the school was 6th in the country for results at that level. The English Bac gives a rather misleading picture.

[fivecandles]

The thing is that a 6th form college CAN do English Lang without Eng Lit BUT presumably if we didn't offer lit (and the students hadn't already done it at school) then they couldn't achieve their EBacc??

[BelligerentGhoul]

Are you talking about A level? Am a bit confused - tis easily done!

[fivecandles]

No, we do GCSE re-sits. We don't have to follow the NC sicne students are post-16 so we can offer straight Lang GCSE.

[fivecandles]

No, we do GCSE re-sits. We don't have to follow the NC sicne students are post-16 so we can offer straight Lang GCSE.

[BelligerentGhoul]

I get you - so if they needed to re-sit lang with you in 6th form then they wouldn't get the Bac at school, nope.

[fivecandles]

But wouldn't get it with us either (without lit).

Do they get presented with a EBacc certificate then in addition to their GCSEs if they meet these requirements?

[MrsTweedy]

grovemum - With a school such as Tiffin's an 85% result (or 'only 85%' as you put it!) has to be down to the school's timetabling and offered options. As others have said, next year's results when the schools have rejigged their time tables will be more realistic in such cases. A schoolteacher friend of mine is already timetabling for next year with the Ebacc in mind.

Still don't really know why it is necessary to do 13 or 14 GCSEs though. Even split over 2 years are they studied in such great depth?

[circular]

Just checked DDs school and saw that the Ebac results were just below half of the 5 A to Cs.
Srange that many schools with higher percentage of 4 A to Cs had much larger differential between that and thr Ebacc.

DDs school dropped the compulsory language for those taking triple science for last years yr9s. (This menat one less option). So they obviously never knew about the Ebacc then. And next years Ebacc results will be worde unless the current year 10s can do a language in one year.

DD is about to chose options, and says there is now a rumour that the compulsory language is coming back this year. Although her proposed choices would cover the Ebacc anyway, she is hoping this happens so dhe gets a futher option. It doesn't seem much of choice when there are only two further options if opting for a language.

[jenandberry]

The compulsory RE is listed under ks4 curriculum and I have been told that it is not being changed. I can't see the tories dropping compulsory RE tbh.

GCSE RE is not compulsory but the study of RE is. Some schools pay this lip service and others do the short course with full course being an alternative or extra.

[nappydays]

I completely fail to see the huge importance of a modern language. I have GCSE in French (A) and German (B) and I can tell you that now, in my 30s, neither have been of the slightest use to me ,ever. What a total waste of time and effort. I can't even string together a sentence in either language now. I go to Spain on holidays so admittedly Spanish could have been some help, but its not really an issue tbh.My son is now being forced to learn French at school and spends inordinate amounts of time on it - I would say at least 6 hours this week to try and pass a test which he failed. he excels in Maths and Science and wishes to persue this career route. He has no wish to ever actually go to France. Can someone explain why he needs to learn Franch? He would like to learn Mandarin and Arabic, which would probably be of some use in this modern era but few schools teach this. No it is French, French, French. France, like most of Europe I am afraid, is no longer much of a player in this globalised world.

[longfingernails]

What a wonderful change.

It totally exposes Labour's woeful dumbing down.

The lack of notice is highly political, but I doubt anyone in the Coalition will shed tears for the militant teachers unions who have hitherto been little more than instruments of educational destruction.

Once parents see Free Schools and Academies doing far better at real subjects, the pressure on other schools to convert will become irresistible. At that point, the Dave and Davina Sparts in the unions will lose most of their power through collective bargaining, and the education system in our country will have improved immeasurably.

Well done Michael Gove!

[edam]

longfinger - have you actually met any teachers?! I'm a school governor, my Dad is a governor, my BIL is a teacher and several of my friends are teachers. All I see are extremely hard working people who do their damndest to give children a decent education while battling endless demands and policy changes from whichever government is in power.

[fivecandles]

'Real subjects'?? So Latin is 'real' but RE and ICT are not?

[BelligerentGhoul]

Ooh, I would LOVE to be an instrument of educational destruction - it's so boring just trying to teach.

[hmmm]