Wot? No textbooks??!

[ampere]

DS1 has just started Y7 in a big comp.

He has brought home several exercise books to be decorated etc but it just occurred to me today (d'oh)- no textbooks at all! We were asked to pay £2.50 towards a Spanish book but it turns out to be a photocopied work book.

So..erm.. from where do they get their 'knowledge'? Worksheets in class? Big interactive whiteboards with internet text on it? (This is a non-tech school so no general use laptops!)

Curious to know!

[mumeeee]

Most schools don't use textbpoks very often now. They might use a textbook in class and then be given photocopied sheets to take home. Students are not provifed with individual text books,

[gramercy]

Old gimmer here. I was at a grammar school in the 70s/80s.

We had no text books. Only for French and German. The French one was weird with line drawings - something about Mme somebody and a cat. And the German one was so out of date it featured healthy young people in Lederhosen going off to youth hostels in the Black Forest. We did get a new text book in the last term before O Levels. Shock horror! There was Kurt smoking! The teacher nearly had a heart attack and retired immediately.

So I suppose it doesn't freak me out that ds has few text books.

[mnistooaddictive]

No textbook ever meets the needs of a class. The other point is that textbooks are very expensive and you never get them all back, plus if carried in every day they get wrecked. Also if kept in school 2 (or more!) classes may use the same set at different times. Plus there is the weight issue so lots of children don't bring them causing hassle in lessons. Then the ones that get lost or never returned. A few years agop we were using a textbook that had been reprinted with different size pages. One of the pupils lost theirs and I couldn't buy another one. As the exercises were different you can't issue that to the pupil meaning you might have to buy a whole new class set. Fortunately I found a secondhand one on Amazon but this is a real issue. If they want background info they can find loads on the internet.
They usually get more as they get older.
Senua - are you expecting me to teach equations to a bottom set year 10 and a top set year 7 on the same way? I do use some of the same worksheets year after year but also reguarly produce new resources as I am inspired with new ideas. This is called good practice.
It is rare for Alevel students not to have textbooks. GCSE higher sets also have them.
In maths it is more common for practice books to be issued for homework. These are small flimsy things that don't get wrecked as not being brought into school every day. They will have exercises in them for homework but no facts or examples. They are a lot cheaper than proper textbooks and whilst I understand most parents would like the proper textbook at home it is too expensive. You can use bitesize or other sites for more info.

[notrightnow]

"If they want background info they can find loads on the internet. "

This drives me mad. My children's teachers say this all the time, but no-one (except me!) is teaching them how to search effectively, how to decide if a source of information is reliable or how to get the most out of sources of different kinds, or different points of view. The school librarian too seems asleep on the job in this regard.

If teachers sent home a list of good quality, reliable sites, or linked to them on the intranet I'd feel that some thought was going into that statement, but frankly this constant 'look it up on the internet' just seems lazy to me.

I agree wholeheartedly with posters further up about the value of textbooks. So much better for going over work which wasn't quite understood in class as well (esp. sciences).

[mnistooaddictive]

The school librarian is not a teacher and is not there to teach them anything. Why can't you use bitesize - I have provided lists of websites on the intranet and lots of teachers do.
A few years ago I had a student teacher shadow me. Her first few days she spent moaning about her DC school. They didn't do this and they didn't do that. By the end of her teaching practice she apologised for this as she realised just what the teachers were doing and compared her expectations to reality. Try it before you call me lazy.

[notrightnow]

mnistooaddictive, I've got plenty of experience of education, thanks, from both sides, and I'm a librarian.

Good for you for providing lists of suitable sites. We have used Bitesize, and is fine for basics, but not for children who want to think about topics in more detail. I didn't call you lazy: I said the practice of referring pupils to the internet with no further guidance seemed like laziness to me. I wasn't 'moaning about school' but pointing out deficiencies which I perceive in a particular area (and I've discussed it with staff too, so not just pointless whining here).

Teaching how to use reference sources should be a core part of a school librarian's job, whether it is printed or online reference materials.

I find it interesting that parents on this thread seem to like and want textbooks, and see benefit in their use, whereas teachers don't.

[mnistooaddictive]

I think we all see the use in textbooks to some extent but as I said above cost is a major factor. They are for different things. Teachers (or good ones) anyway no longer do that "turn to page 13 and answer the questions" thing that they used to every lesson. This is a good thing and means textbooks are used less in schools. What parents are saying is they want a textbook at home for them to use to support their child. It won't be used for homework or classwork but when they struggle. A £8 textbook for every child for every subject is a lot of money and that is why parents are ecouraged to use technology more. Alternatively you can go to a library and borrow textbooks or buy one. We are in a circular arguement then about who should pay. We all want someone else to pay.
Linbrarians don't have time with classes now. When I was at school we had library once a week in year 7. It doesn't happen now. When do librarians do this? It should happen in IT lessons but often doesn't. You obviously feel strong about this as it is your area. I still feel it is expecting a lot of an already overworked and underpaid librarian.

[notrightnow]

I do take your point about the problems of text books in lessons, and the cost, but I still can't see that they should be wholly replaced by other kinds of resources. You are clearly diligent and preparing good quality stuff for your pupils, but this doesn't always happen. And how much do schools spend on photocopying and printing? It must be a vast amount.

You are right - I do feel very strongly about children learning to assess the value of resources, but not just because it's my area. The internet has muddied the waters for children's learning as well as providing lots of good stuff. There is a huge amount of material of dubious quality, and even if that isn't the problem, children need to learn that skimming the first 10 hits on Google is not 'research'. Information needs to be age appropriate, and aimed at the right educational stage. Someone has to teach children how to use search and evaluate, and if that isn't a role of school, I don't know what is. I'm fortunate that my background and general geekiness give me the ability to teach my own children this stuff, but that's not true for plenty of parents. I'm afraid that it is the librarian's job, no matter how underpaid and overworked - or should be. I can't believe things have changed too vastly since I qualified - assessing reference sources and explaining to your users how to do the same was the first course taught at library school - and with good reason. I should also just mention that my kids ^do& get a period in the library and they're still not taught this stuff, which makes me extra grumpy!

Anyway, I've drifted far off the point. Sorry if I seemed too aggressive in my first post. This is one of the issues which I think is a really serious problem in the education system right now.

[mnistooaddictive]

Can I just say you have had an impact. Next time I teach ICT I will terach how to use the internet to research properly!
Thousands of worksheets are not the answer either btw as many people have said.

[Algebra18MinusPiEquals16]

a big problem with worksheets is that they get creased up and lost, and are highly unlikely to be looked at ever again. they are disposable - not just physically, but mentally too. IMO, the fact that they are flimsy and dull just provides an unfavourable analogy for what is written on them.

[mnistooaddictive]

A worksheet may be way to get children thinking. It is not necessarily wrong to use them but it depends what happens as well as using a worksheet!

[Algebra18MinusPiEquals16]

yes, they can be useful additions - unfortunately DSDs' school seems to think that all teaching can be done via photocopied sheets :(

[MaMoTTaT]

but no-one (except me!) is teaching them how to search effectively, how to decide if a source of information is reliable or how to get the most out of sources of different kinds, or different points of view"

at DS1's junior school part of the ICT they've done is how to search effectively, and how to decide if a source is reliable or not.

[senua]

When I was at school we had text books provided, which we used for revising. These days, despite the wonderful resource of photocopied sheets, the parents are encouraged to buy those dreadful CGP comics revision books.
I believe the schools earn a commission on these sales too. Just to rub salt in the wound.

[vespasian]

I do spend time teaching students how to research effectivly using books and or the internet.

The syllabuses have just changed across all the key stages which is why we have just recreated a lot of stuff. Many subjects make link with current affairs etc so new resources are needed but otherwise it is daft to reinvent the wheel.

[mnistooaddictive]

No commission. We can just get them cheaper than you as we buy in bulk. Some schools may be taking a cut but we never did. TBH by the time they get to exams they usually have textbooks. year 7 and 8 not having textbooks doesn't require them to buy revision guides. Photocopying is not new - it just replaced the wonderful banda machine.

[BelligerentGhoul]

Senua - I re-make my resources all of the time because different classes and different pupils need different things. That's what personalised learning is about.

Also, my syllabus has just changed beyond all recognition and quite frankly, the resources and textbooks provided by the exam board are not very good.

[marshypops]

1. We don't get commission, we can buy cheaper (and at my school) pass the saving onto the children.
   
2. Sadly we don't have 100% co-operative parents so even if we had the resources to send every child home with a textbook there would be a large majority found dumped somewhere or sold.
   
3. My classes change every year so something that was perfect for last years class needs to be changed this year.
   
4. As a practical subject I project the learning objectives for the lesson but for most of the time the children are doing a practical and writing it up - no need for worksheets.
   
5. The learning point or objective are normally linked together and there should be a theme (not always obvious to children/ parents) but obvious to me - the one guaranteed worksheet from me is a ticklist of what they will learn in this topic - so they can see the links.
   
6. I would love to have the time to teach them good research skills but either time or rude children stop me from doing this. Sadly, there are some very rude children out there who see no value to school/ education so a lesson teaching reliable and unreliable sources of information on the internet would be ignored.
   
7. If you'd like me to provide a list of good quality web-sites/ books that do provide you with reliable information for Science then please let me know, as it is always nice to correspond with parents who are interested in their child's education. Sadly, I'm in a school where this is rarely the case.

[senua]

I'll take you up on your kind offer of a list of websites/books for Science. I'm afraid that DS is no scientist, Humanities are his thing, but I'm hoping that he might take one of the Sciences to at least AS.

[nearlytoolate]

notrightnow, can you recommend any good resources (I hesitate to use the word textbook) which would help primary age children use the internet effectively?
I so agree that a key skill in the modern era is how to search, identify relevant and reliable sources and extract pertinent information from them. I'm in HE and even very bright undergrads can't do this effectively!

[freerangeeggs]

Using textbooks is very much frowned upon nowadays, for a variety of reasons.

First of all, textbooks are often almost useless and sometimes utterly useless. There are a variety of reasons - they're not differentiated for the very weak/very able kids, they're often far too wordy, they're dull as dishwater and they aren't pupil-centred. The older ones don't tie in with the curriculum; if they do, they're often one person's interpretation of what the curriculum should be and I don't always agree that their way is the best way to deliver it to my pupils.

I use textbooks very occasionally, but I'll supplement what I do with activities and slides on my SmartBoard, which allows me to demonstrate how to work through questions interactively.

Most schools seem to have entire schemes of work saved as SmartBoard files, with corresponding Word document worksheets and differentation - all produced by the teachers.

I can assure any parents who are reading that I spend hour upon hour planning engaging lessons for the kids in my classes. I have very good reasons for staying away from textbooks (not least of which being that I can't choose the ones my school buys), but to be honest I enjoy making SmartBoard schemes and would probably do it anyway because it works so well.

As for 'reinventing the wheel' - the schemes in my own department are used year after year. Designing a scheme of work is a big deal, and takes a long time - very few people would do it unnecessarily.

I'm surprised so many people are coming out in favour of textbooks. I hated mine when I was at school.

[designergirl]

Some of my classes dont have textbooks bcse the school cant afford to buy them. But we do use the Interactive Whiteboards a lot and some worksheets

[senua]

"they're often far too wordy"

You are joking, aren't you?

[Algebra18MinusPiEquals16]

yes, heaven forbid that a child should actually have to read more words than absolutely necessary... maybe it'd make it too confusing when they got to the exam and didn't know which words to write down

[BelligerentGhoul]

Oh for goodness sake. I assume that the 'too wordy' thing meant that they have insufficient differentiation and aren't appropriate for all pupils.

Just because most of the people on here seem to have produced children of genius-IQ, doesn't mean that ALL pupils can access ALL textbooks.

It's not selling them short to not use the (often inappropriate textbooks); it's supporting their acquisition of language and further learning by making resources that better enable them to access the content of the subject and therefore have a fighting chance of succeeding in exams.