Abusive men don't change

[thisishowifeel]

Is this really true?

My therapist seemed to think that yes they can change. She said that her job would otherwise be pointless.

Is it more that, they find it almost impossible to accept that it may be them with the problem, and therefore do not seek help, and if they got past THAT bit then change would indeed be possible?

The Freedom Programme run a course for men that seems to have success, as does the Lifeline programme. It's just getting them through the door is so hard.

What do you all think?

[MiscellaneousAssortment]

Perhaps some Can change, but for most, they don't Want to change.

The sense of superiority and entitlement are what fuels a use and are what stand in the way of making any meaningful change.

I tried to 'help' stbxh change for years. Needless to say, it got me precisely nowhere. Or rather, I got the grand prize of becoming very fucked up.

I can change though. To protect myself better. Maybe one day I'll be able to have another relationship. I terribly lonely but make no move towards finding a relationship as I don't trust my fragile new self to cope with an actual human being!

I find it very difficult to understand the rationale of the court, that committing domestic abuse to a wife, or partner, is completely irrelevant to judging the fathers ability to be a fit father. It's smacks of 'women don't matter', and that violence to women can, well, must be ignored as a complete irrelevance as an indicator that a man might not be a good father figure.

The permanent physical injury I have years after, the repeated rape, the cruelty, isolation, financial abuse and then his lovely little gambling habit that left me with over £20K debt... All that can be written off as completely unimportant when it comes to deciding whether DS should be exposed to his father or not. There's something very, very wrong with a system that discounts the abuse of women.

And yes, I know that children aren't pay per view, but a court that allows men to refuse to pay any money towards the life of their child, and still decides it's more important a father sees his DC than those DC having clothes or shoes or food... Where is the child's welfare in any of that?

Well, it's a court system that needs dramatic change.

[maggiethemagpie]

Anyone can change if they take responsibility for being the problem and commit to personal growth.

So abusive men CAN change but many of them DON'T change, as they aren't ready to admit they are the problem.

You can no more say 'abusive men can't change' than you can say 'drug addicts can't stop taking drugs' or 'anorexics can stop starving themselves'

Some can, most can't.

Waiting for someone to change, or trying to make them change is foolish... it has to come from deep within them themselves.

I think it's very negative and limiting to say no one can ever change though.

[MariposaUno]

Argh zombie

[MariposaUno]

I imagine they can but it's circumstantial like an abusive 17 old might mature and not be abusive after a couple years.

Drugs/alcohol and low self esteem are contributors to abusive people so if they can stop that then it's possible and they actually have to want to change.

I don't believe all can change though so if you are experiencing abuse you have to ask yourself if it's worth sticking around to see if they actively change.

I wouldn't.

[Theladyloriana]

Did any of the abusers change?

[Theladyloriana]

I just read this thread in awe of the strength of posters here. I know it's a zombie thread but I wondered how people were doing now

[mathanxiety]

Newname -- are you me? Is your H my ex? I never got mine to agree that he might have a problem, despite possibly being a clone of yours.

I deeply resented the role of relationship police, and he was completely unwilling to see that trusting him not to blow up was something he had to work on to restore, not my job and mine alone, or a simple choice I could easily make. He thought it should be 'forgive and forget' on my part. You are so right -- it has to be instinctive and not begrudged, and it has to come from him, and be his responsibility.

Good wishes xxx

[mumonthenet]

wow newname,

I am impressed. You are doing well.

(Not sure I would agree with you that his abuse was at the lower end of the scale - his behaviour sounds not far off the top of the scale - don't fall into the trap of minimising it. Even if it was only a few times over 10 years)

Love and strength to you.

[newnamethistime]

My H and I are both having therapy now following my realisation that the way he was behaving was abusive.
It wasn't all the time (of course) and by the standards seen here he would have been on the lower end of the scale.
Still - this meant him routinely screaming/yelling/roaring at me and dc. Him threatening dc, him smashing things in a rage, him shoving me around/bruising my arms (a few times over 10 years or so). But the worst was the constant criticism, of everything and anything. As I have depression (on and off for many years) - this part affected me badly as I was believing what he said (there is always a grain of truth etc).
I finally managed to deliver an ultimatum that he do something about his behaviour (the threatening the dc was the catalyst). He is now going to weekly psychotherapy.
Once he had started this, I realised that I needed support, so I decided to do my own therapy. My therapist believes there is hope for us (him, me or both of us together) as he is committed to it.
He is learning lots about why he is the way he is, likewise I am learning lots.
Ultimately I want to get to a place where I feel I can make a decision to stay or leave. I want him to understand what is required of him (i.e. that I can 'trust' him not to blow up). Along the way I have seen how I have been horribly accommodating of his atrocious behaviour, how I have allowed him to persist with his rubbish sense of entitlement.
I am learning why I have been like this (some of it attachment issues after spending time as a v. young child in a religious run care home in a nearby country),I have very basic separation anxiety issues which make 'leaving' a very hard thing to do.
For the first few months all I could talk about in my therapy sessions was H, now I realise that I need to look after myself and not constantly think about why H did/said XYZ.
I'm delaying making a decision on H, while I give him some time to work through his stuff (which is considerable), but I am also getting much better now at not taking rubbish from him.
Obviously in the long run it is not sustainable for me to be policing him to keep him in line (as I have been doing). I know now that it is this 'trust' that needs to be repaired. This can only be done with actions, and it needs to be instinctive of his behalf. Begrudging simply will not cut it, because if he huffs and puffs about something suddenly I feel uneasy (read scared).
I am learning to trust my own feelings - that nasty feeling in my chest/tummy if we have a certain sort of row - I now know that I need to listen to this and not try to move on.
This is all a bit rambly (sorry!), but it's where we are at the moment.

[mathanxiety]

I believe so. I think he found all they did was boost the men's feeling of being so much cleverer than ordinary men.

[ItsGraceAgain]

Isn't that why Lundy Bancroft stopped leading anger-management courses for DV men?

[mathanxiety]

I think a lot of abusive men just manage to fine tune their abuse in a lot of the courses that are available, and they get a kick out of fooling the 'girly men' who run them or speak at them.

[AnyFucker]

do I think an abusive man can change ?....no

do I think he can get better at it?...yes

he can learn to manage it better ie. in the cycle of abuse the "nice" spells a bit longer

or he becomes more subtle in his behaviour (this is why marriage counselling is not recommended in abusive relationships...he "improves" his button-pushing tendencies)

do I think any woman should stay with any man after the first incidence of pushing the boundaries ?

no

[mathanxiety]

I think women are disproportionately affected by domestic violence before divorce, though, and it's a pity the courts can't see that putting father's rights before the fact that a man may have abused his wife and by extension his children, has a very negative effect on children.

It tells children who have witnessed abuse that men can get away with violence or terrorising a family; if they are faced with visitation or some sort of contact with someone whom they have seen abusing their mother, they are learning to disregard their instincts, not go to the authorities for help (because it's the courts who are making them stay with their abusive dad in the first place), and that really nobody in authority cares about them or about their mother.

They are in danger of having the lesson from home reinforced by the system -- that women don't matter, that the only thing that matters is who shouts loudest, who can back up a command with a fist or a belt. Allowing abusive men rights to see their children or joint custody means dismissing and normalising their behaviour.

[ItsGraceAgain]

Math - yes, though I can see why the issue is so thorny. Both male & female partners use children in divorce: in both cases, behaving abusively towards the spouse and the DCs. At least the courts no longer automatically favour the mother, which I feel is right. Probably going to be a while before the processes become sophisticated enough to see through bullshit & bullying.

[ItsGraceAgain]

Yes, I've read on here about professionals spotting abuse and supporting the targets. it's fantastic news!

I was also thrilled when DV became a curriculum topic. Is it still? Making children aware of what bullying is, and why it's wrong, has to be the only long-term approach to reducing the problem, surely.

[mathanxiety]

As long as there's any reward for not changing, there will be no change.

I think men should speak up more, but I think the courts should take dv far more seriously. The concept of 'father's rights' should be drastically reexamined by divorce courts too. Some men don't need any reminders of their rights.

[thisishowifeel]

But Grace....you do have a point, but it should be the culture of abuse that should be addressed. It is happening slowly.

On these boards we have seen abuse "outed" by health visitors, midwives, in my case my nurse practitioner. They are trained to identify it.

What is not happening is the same being true for the men who do it. I know there are ethical issues, but these men should be brought to account for what they do, there should be an education programme, on these citizenship days in schools, or whatever, to address boys behaviour and sense of entitlement. The perpetrators should be forced into facing what they have done and continue to do, through the health and social services, and the legal process.

I know that it comes from the family environment, but like drink/driving and smoking, racism etc....the culture can be changed, and quite quickly, but it need to be the men who do some of the bloody work on this too!

[ItsGraceAgain]

world, even

[ItsGraceAgain]

Cheers, GOML

You know, what with so many worrying threads here at the moment, I wish something would happen to let all abused partners see through the mist and just dump the buggers. I do know how hard it is to recognise and admit the horrors in your own life, but what with threads being deleted and OPs fading away ... Nothing's going to change, is it?

Whereas, if everybody dumped their bullies and supported one another instead, there'd be no-one left for abusers to abuse. Families everywhere would be so much happier.

Fantasy over; back to the real worl!

[GetOrfMoiLand]

Grace that is a brilliant analogy and I agree with your every word.

[ipodmama]

I had to spend a ridiculous amount of emotional energy telling myself over and over not to let his belittling/crap words get to me. It was hard work and probably made me stronger however the relief of not having to deal with him any longer is immense. I stayed because of the kids and my own sense of morals regarding splitting up a family etc - but I was only going to wait until our son reached adulthood. Even so I wasn't quite sure how I'd cope for another fourteen years! I guess I've been lucky as I can remember the struggle I had with all the feelings and he was scary ( threats etc) so I was never quite sure what he would do if I left. He was from Pakistan , I'm British; he'd threatened to send the kids away. HELL, HELL, HELL

[ItsGraceAgain]

thisis - saw your other post, too. I still think you're better off attending to your own "leaks & wiring" ... leave him to do his own repairs in his own way!

[ItsGraceAgain]

I no longer think it's worth the effort. If you rented a house that turned out to have loads of hidden problems with leaks and faulty wiring, would you start fixing it or move somewhere else?

My problem was that I used to think all houses were uncomfortable & dangerous, metaphorically speaking. Now I know they're not, I don't see why I should be responsible someone else's faulty wiring.

[GetOrfMoiLand]

Christ Ipod. Poor you, you must be feeling all over the place.

i don't believe that abusive men can change tbh. They just learn ways to control their behaviour. Perhaps with years of work and therapy you could make a breakthrough, but I doubt that anyone's intrinsic behaviour patterns would change on a permanent basis. You would always be on the alert for a 'relapse'.

Sod it, why waste your time. If someone is abusive to you, get rid. Don't be a martyr waste your time and emotion on trying to 'fix' someone.

XP was an abusive arsehole. years of me modifying my behaviour, trying everything to get him to change. What a waste of 7 years of my life. Most of my twenties wasted on him. Never again. Life is too short to waste it on trying to help people who generally do not want to change.