Once a cheat always a cheat? Is there any point in trying to save my marriage?

[BeenThereFeltThat]

If anyone wants the background I've posted about this before under this name.

Last night DH left his email account open when he went out and I saw a chat between him and the woman he had a 4 day fling with 3 years ago.
I confronted him about it when he got home and he came out with all the usual excuses:

'It was her who started the chat' No, actually it was him.
'Poor thing she's going through a hard time'. What about the hard time I've gone through since his fling(s)?
Bla bla fecking bla

He blames it on the fact I don't want to sleep with him, am a block of ice, have never been sweet or gentle or loving.

I blame all that on the fact that he has systemtically eroded my confidence and love for him due to his 20 years of cheating, since I met him in fact. He thinks I 'live in the past' that I 'love going over old hurts'.

You might at this point be wondering why I'm still with him, why I didnt leave years ago...well, he's fun (well he used to be...), intelligent, handsome etc etc and every time I found out about an infidelity he'd swear it wouldn't happen again and I, stupidly, believed him.

Problem is we now have 2 young DCs and last night he threatened me with legal action if I try to take them away from him, which I wouldn't because he's a good father but I had said 'what is the point, we shouldn't live together any more...them seeing us like this is not good for them'.

I told him I would love more than anything to be happy together, to have a great sex life with him but it's got to the stage where not just my mind is rejecting him but my body too. As if my mind and body are in collusion saying 'Why would you want to sleep with someone you don't trust? Why would you do that?'.

Also he won't take any responsibility for contraception, won't use condoms and I don't see why I should f*ck up my body with the pill or use other methods which are invasive.
I can't get pregnant again, am getting on and broke and there's no way I'm going through all that again just when the DC are finally starting to be easier.
It's easy for him to say 'let's have unproteced sex, nothing will happen' - his life would go on as normal and mine would be even more difficult.

I got out of bed and hid our passports as we already have flights booked to move back to my country later this year. He is coming with us but I think he may have a legal right to prevent me from going with them alone if things deteriorate. I said to him if you are coming with us then we have got to do something about our crap relationship. If you aren't prepared to do anything about it then don't come.

What a mess, how did things get this way?
Does anyone have any wisdom?

[SolidGoldBrass]

I often advise people whose partners are not monogamous to sit down and seriously consider whether they can accept the fact that their partner is going to have sex with other people, because if you choose to accept it (only do this if you feel you can live with it) actually all the stress goes away. You're not forever waiting and wondering about the next affair or hissing at every woman he speaks to, you're just getting on with life.

However, this man is not just a monogamy refuser, he's a nasty bit of goods: the no-condoms thing being the biggest indicator of this. Refusing to use condoms while being openly non-exclusive in sexual relationships is complete knobbery.
And when he says he 'wants it to work' what he means is he wants you to carry on coocking and cleaning and looking after the DC and appearing with him in public enough times to make everyone else think of him as Nice Respectable Married Family man, while he does what the hell he likes with no reference to you and no interest whatsoever in your wellbeing.
Get some legal advice and get rid of him.

[BeenThereFeltThat]

Thanks everyone - I will update in 6 months...

[abedelia]

Notplaying - yes, I hadn't noticed that about the condoms and it is very worrying. So he was willing to do it for a casual shag but not his wife? WTF.

Beenthere - my H insisted he had never been looking for an affair BUT it turned out that at his leaving do he had dropped a fair few hints to her that she was a bit of a special friend (apparently he wanted to find out whether she'd been flirting with him previously - which she had - and justified it by telling himself he'd probably never have contact with her again, and that their flirtation would just be a nice memory). Then when she texted him madly and emailed hints back every day for a week thereafter, it only took a few days before he was merrily responding and on the ball rolled.

Point is, what your H justifies as 'not looking' in his own head and what actually happened may be two different things. If someone puts her hand on his knee, does that mean 'she started it'?

Still, whatever his motives for counselling I would let him have a go; perhaps talking it through with a third party might actually let something click? Surely he must have felt some guilt after the first one, so why do it again?

[HolyGuacamole]

beentherefeltthat - if he agrees to counselling and if you are willing to give it a shot, then I wish you the very best of luck. This is obviously something you don't want to give up on easily, I hope this is the last chance saloon for you and that you can move on, one way or another.

Best wishes.

[NotPlayingAnyMore]

"He used condoms during the fling 3 years ago because she insisted." - but won't use condoms with you, his wife, now?

[HappyWoman]

I too am worried that all he is saying that he wants to go to counselling - it is not at all easy and i wonder if he is just saying that becuase he thinks it is what you want to hear and maybe it will 'stop you nagging'.
Another person can only help him see it from another point of view it sounds as if he is not willing to accept the damage he has done.
It just happened . Ok so even if it did what is he doing to make sure it doesnt just happen again????

Good luck with getting him to open up but i dont think he will - he has somehow justified it to himself and now he wants you to accept it to and not keep reminding him of it. Make sure YOUR NEED to talk about it is not dismissed as you wanting to just go over old ground again.

[FabBakerGirlIsBack]

It matters what sex they are because a boy will see from his dad that men treat woman badly and get away with it, and girls will think they have to take it.

20 years.

Surely you don't want 20 more minutes of this?

[TheMysticMasseuse]

but to threaten legal action is also a form of bullying, and it's also violence in itself. to tell you that he has affairs because of something you do or don't- that's also bullying.

i am sorry. he needs to stop making excuses for himself, but you also need to stop making excuses for him.

by all means give counselling a try. but start thinking about the possibility that you may be better off without him...

good luck.

[BeenThereFeltThat]

MRS MW - I have never left him, we've lived together for 20 years. Yes, I want to give councelling a shot and he's willing to try it. We want to be happy together, there's just so much old shit in our relationship that needs clearing out.

[mrsmerryweather]

During your time together, have you ever moved back to your country- or have you always stayed with him?

It seems he is willing to move back with you which is a big step.

Give counselling a chance maybe?

[BeenThereFeltThat]

Mystic - sorry, missed your post. I hid the passports because he threatend me with legal action but I'm not afraid of him. He's not violent at all.

Like abedelia says of her DH mine never went out looking for an affair or made the first moves but that doesn't excuse him not nipping things in the bud.

He says he loves me and I say it would be easier if you didn't.

[BeenThereFeltThat]

abedelia- thanks, i agree entirely and am hoping that the chance to have councelling, which we havent been able to have till now, will somehow help him to see that his mindset is wrong and make him face up to his actions and decisions. The fact that it will be someone else making him think and talk it through and not just me 'nagging' at him will be helpful too...

[abedelia]

Well, at least he is willing to go for help - and that will make him see that he made the choice to do what he did. My H was the same, he said "I never made a conscious choice to have an EA, and when we met we just ended up in a room together and things happened". It took a while but he now accepts that the minute he started emailing and calling her behind my back and saying things I'd have gone ballistic about, of course he made the decision. It's very fundamental that he gets to that...

It is hard to throw away a marriage if you genuinely like the person, despite their behaviour, and I would at least give him the chance to go through counselling and see if this can make him aware of what he has CHOSEN to do. But if he can't see that after a couple of months, then I wouldn't hold out much hope. He has to accept blame, not pass it off on you. Only then will be realise and be truly sorry so he doesn't do it again.

[BeenThereFeltThat]

The DC are under 6 yo

[TheMysticMasseuse]

i started off thinking "perhaps, if he's open to it, you should give Relate a call".

But the more i read the more he seems like a hopeless bastard. I find it quite telling, too, that you've hidden your passports- do you fear this could get ugly? so not only he's an asshole, but you are also afraid of him.

this is no good, my dear. you need out. you deserve more and better than this lying, manipulative, cheating excuse of a man

[BeenThereFeltThat]

Fab - what does it matter what sex they are?
Mrs.MW - We are moving to my home country but I'd rather not say which it is, don't want to out myself, have relatives on here.

[mrsmerryweather]

sorry- can see it isn't.

How old are your DCs?

[mrsmerryweather]

Is the UK your native country then- which one of you would be moving to the other's home country?

[BeenThereFeltThat]

Mrs.MW - Can't give too many details, don't want to out myself but he will have ok work prospects there, also we will be able to do things as a family or as a couple which due to work has been almost impossible over the last few years. This hasn't helped matters at all.

[FabBakerGirlIsBack]

Are your children boys or girls?

[mrsmerryweather]

where would you be going back to- where is the other country? could he find work there?

[BeenThereFeltThat]

Many thanks to those who've added posts since yesterday.
I have been arguing discussing everything with him and something that shines through is is inability to accept responsibility for his actions.
'It just happened' is his favourite phrase. Also indignation that I am 'prying into his private life'.
Obviously I have been through all this over the years with him and my replies are - things don't just 'happen', you are responsible for your actions and your 'private life' is the one you have with me.
He doesn't seem to understand but he does seem adamant that he wants to be with me and willing to get help (counceling).

[abedelia]

Before you decide you want to stay with him, have a good hard think about whether - even if he behaves like husband of the century from now on - you can actually live with the knowledge of what he has been capable of doing to you. It's something I still find very hard.

At the moment you are in battle mode and have been for years because you are constantly looking out for the next revelation and fighting to keep him. It's when the fighting stops that you get time and space to really think about what has happened and how you have been treated. Happywoman might also agree that this is actually the worst time as once the adrenaline wears off it all hits you like a ton of bricks.

Keep in touch - hope you are finding a way through, but do look into the legal side in case he decides you are serious about leaving and tries to do anything odd with the children.

[TwoHot]

You could be happy with someone else, but you will never get that chance while you stay with your husband.

[somewhathorrified]

The lack of sex excuse is about transfering guilt on to you. It's a similar thing that you get in abusive relationships...it is not your fault, other people manage with just masturbation, it was a choice he made to have a fling.

Is it irrepairable? No, if you both want to be together you can work it out...but it's very hard work. The question you have to answer is, is it worth it? I think you know that this can't continue; sit down with him, tell what you will tolerate and what you will not and stick to it, ask him what his requirements of the marriage are, are they compatible with yours? if they're not then you have your answer.