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Relationships

Non-monogamous relationships discussion thread

111 replies

wishfuldreamer · 04/10/2021 12:10

I know that the last time someone attempted this, it didn't end well. but, some time has passed here, and i've witnessed some more reasonable discussions - and there were enough people asking questions on a different thread that I thought maybe a separate thread might be useful, rather than derail the OP's advice more than it already was.

I realise i can't control the direction of this, but I was thinking about this more as a place for people to ask questions and a place for discussion. not really for people in happy monogamous marriages to tell ENM folks what they are doing wrong/don't understand. Monogamous marriage is a perfectly valid choice, as far as I'm concerned, it just isn't the choice for me.

anyway...the space is here if people want to discuss or ask questions.

OP posts:
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whycantwegoonasthree · 15/10/2021 11:35

@Onthedunes the matriarchal equivalent of polygamy isn't polyamory, it's polygyny. What I would say is that whilst it's not 'matriarchal' - women calling the shots (the idea being egalitarianism, where no-one gets to call the shots) there's certainly a hefty feminist cross-over. A lot of the women I know who have chosen to be poly have done it in part in rejection of the ownership of their bodies and sexuality by anyone but themselves.

There's also a heft queer overlap.

As for older poly people – I haven't met very many over sixty. I'm not sure if that's because they don't exist, or because they've been more closeted, or they just hang out in different places to me. But there are plenty of fifty-somethings, that's for sure.

It was definitely a fairly popular idea in the sixties (my username refers, in part, to a song about it by Jefferson Airplane) but I'm not sure how many people followed through in practice for the long term...

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whycantwegoonasthree · 15/10/2021 11:02

@RiojaRose – I'm not sure that any humans are naturally monogamous! I think some are better suited than others at conforming to societal expectations.

And I think it's still the expectation pretty much everywhere – it's definitely not yet become widely accepted. It's like these days, it's perfectly fine to love whoever you like (which is great) but only one at a time (not so great).

Or as Esther Perel says so eloquently: "Monogamy used to mean one person for life. Now it means one person at a a time."

Here's that Ted talk about humans and monogamy - in case you missed it above. It's not long and it's great.

//www.ted.com/talks/christopher_ryan_are_we_designed_to_be_sexual_omnivores?language=en

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RiojaRose · 15/10/2021 10:38

Interesting thread. I’ve been wondering for a while whether some people are ‘naturally’ monogamous and others are ‘naturally’ non-monogamous. And if so, what’s behind the difference? I just wonder because monogamy doesn’t come easily to me, although I’m capable of doing it with a fair amount of effort. There’s definitely a prevailing expectation of it, at least in the circles I move in.

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whycantwegoonasthree · 15/10/2021 09:35

I think what poly invites you to do when you feel jealousy is to dig a bit deeper as to what you're feeling and why. In a lot a monogamous relationships I see jealousy being conflated with love… "he's only jealous because he loves me so much, it's a sign that he cares".

But given that we've agreed it's ok for partners to love others, that conflation makes even less sense. So instead we have to ask ourselves, am I feeling that someone has something that I believe is rightfully mine, and mine alone? Am I feeling that someone has something that I want? Am I frightened or insecure that I'm about to lose something that I value?

I think poly people feel jealousy (and envy) as much as anyone. More, probably, because there are more opportunities to experience it! It's what we do with it that's different – because we can't get away with ignoring it.

The biggest learning curve in poly is communication. In mono relationships you can get away with not talking about a whole lot of stuff, because there are a lot of things taken for granted or as a given. I don't actually think that's a good thing... learning to be open and honest about what you're feeling and asking yourself why is a total game changer. But you have to learn how to do it, because it's not the norm in our relationship culture generally.

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Boonlark · 15/10/2021 07:59

Yes, jealousy does happen. In a healthy relationship, you can talk about it with the relevant partner. IME it's usually due to either feelings of insecurity (and you talk about how to help with that) or because you're getting less time with that partner and feeling forgotten/left out (again, you talk about how to make time for each other). Not all people are in healthy relationships though.

What's been surprising for me, is compersion. That's when you are happy for your partner when you see them with another partner. When my partner gives my metamour a hug or kiss etc in front of me, it makes me inwardly think "Oh they're so cute!" and I start grinning.

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Onthedunes · 15/10/2021 00:21

@whycantwegoonasthree

Thank you for answering, I have gained more understanding.

I am essentially a believer that if you are not actively hurting anyone, knowingly then all is good, all parties with full disclosure.

Are there many situations where jealousy arises or is this considered to be illogical and un worthy of comfort when it does.?

Could I ask is there an older sector in the poly community? I mean this is probably where the seeds were laid during the sixties with flower power, the acceptance of free love, the turn on, tune in and drop out brigade of the baby boomers.
Or did most of them just conform?

As with the suspected patiarchy attatched to polygamy do you believe there there could be a suspected matriarchy attatched to polyamory?

More questions, sorry.

I suppose it will continue to be very difficult to change the laws of protection concerning inheritance look how long it has taken for women who were married to gain a voice.

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whycantwegoonasthree · 14/10/2021 23:33

Not at all - it's very relevant. As soon as you structure your life in a way that doesn't conform, any of the protections of law don't apply. It's a very real issue and an important consideration when considering doing things differently.

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TackyJewellery · 14/10/2021 23:27

The biggest problem is likely to be fucking taxes. The state doesn't give me the right to inherit the house as a spouse, with, I think paying capital gains tax on it. Even though we bought it together and live here together

Apologies for derailing your interesting thread into a boring tangent about wills and property!

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whycantwegoonasthree · 14/10/2021 16:07

@TackyJewellery Ah, sorry, just realised that you're talking about my current partner, not my ex.

And yes, as many legal measures as can be put in place, have been put in place. Which has also cost a fortune in legal fees. It's only a thing if his wife decides to challenge his will in court - and I can't imagine her doing that, or a court accepting that a challenge to his will is valid.

The biggest problem is likely to be fucking taxes. The state doesn't give me the right to inherit the house as a spouse, with, I think paying capital gains tax on it. Even though we bought it together and live here together.

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whycantwegoonasthree · 14/10/2021 16:03

@TackyJewellery all ancient history now... and yes, got good legal advice - it's what cost me a bunch of my savings!

I got money out of the house in the end – not enough, by a long way, given that it was me that brought the property and equity into the marriage – but there came a point when I wanted him out of my life more than I wanted the money.

Your concern is a nice thing though - genuine thank you.

What probably more pertinent here, and is why in the end I didn't get into a protracted fight about money, was my ex's threat to use my non-monogamy as grounds to gain full custody of my kids. Good legal advice helped ensure that didn't happen, but it's an un-tested circumstance, legally, in the uk as yet.

And it's why, for me, poly visibility is really important. It needs to stop being, in the public consciousness, a niche, poorly understood and much maligned thing that only deviants do.

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TackyJewellery · 14/10/2021 14:09

It doesn't mean I am fiscally irresponsible... it just means that I have grown comfortable with a bit more risk, I guess. Property rights and poly are a minefield, for example, I share a house and a mortgage with my partner, but if he were to die, because we are not married (and he is married to someone else), I would get lumped with a tonne of taxes, which would probably mean I couldn't stay in this house. I love my home, and I love sharing it with him, but if ultimately I have to leave it? So-be-it. Done it before. Can do it again

If he’s married to someone else she could end up with your (and by extension, your children’s) share of the house. Hope you’ve had proper legal advice about that.

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timeisnotaline · 14/10/2021 13:16

I can see the multiple adults advantage for sure Grin but agree that applies to partners already in place, not so much new partners who aren’t familiar to or close to the dc.

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whycantwegoonasthree · 14/10/2021 12:46

Sorry, managed to fuck up that post. The bit with the ^^s was supposed to be below the nuclear family bit - that's the model I don't think works!

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whycantwegoonasthree · 14/10/2021 12:45

@timeisnotaline - I get you.

I think done well, and if in place before this period in life poly can provide a tribal network of support, that replaces the extended family network that used to exist before we all moved away and invented this idea of 'nuclear families' where two parents are supposed to manage everything without help.

And later, things do get easier, when kids are bigger and their needs change. Even then though, poly can help. It got us through a tranche of home-schooling by forming a bubble, and having multiple adults juggling work and home schooling and food prep.



^^ As in I don't think that model works very well or is very sustainable, especially with the economic reality of the world we live in where both parents often need to work outside the home just to keep the lights on.

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timeisnotaline · 14/10/2021 12:08

Thanks comtesse. Dh pulls his weight, we are just busy, working weekends etc, trying to spend time with the dc, they wake us up at night, we aren’t exactly seeing friends often right now! That support each other time is used for work, our me time is rest or exercise if you’re the not pregnant parent. I am not a martyr.

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ComtesseDeSpair · 14/10/2021 10:07

@timeisnotaline

I do wonder re aishes points- how many of these people have busy demanding jobs and children? Dh & I have two young dc, I’m pregnant and we both work full time in demanding jobs - we’ve both been catching up with housework and work till midnight every night for a couple of weeks. Obviously we don’t get a lot of time to hang out and we’re in lockdown so the house is a tip without a cleaner. I could not sustain another relationship, full stop. I feel like if you’re in a busy job with young dc you can’t really live this lifestyle.

I imagine it’s more difficult if you have several young children, yes. But when my girlfriend is out or away with me or staying at mine (and yes, we do have jobs - I’m a lawyer, she’s a hospital consultant) her husband is with their DC - just as he is when she’s out for drinks or away for the weekend with a friend, or at the gym, or going for a run. He’s their equal parent and enjoys taking care of them and having the time to bond with them on his own. So “where would I find the time” seems like a strange question, like asking how as somebody with a job or a child you’d find the time to have friends.

And yes, many people with young children do struggle to find time for themselves, but if there are two of you in a partership, you support each other so that each of you gets “me time”. I wonder if the “where would I find the time” view is often from women who struggle to give themselves permission to take time off from being a mother, or whose partners don’t pull their weight at home and with the children and so they never get a break?
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whycantwegoonasthree · 14/10/2021 09:47

@timeisnotaline

I do wonder re aishes points- how many of these people have busy demanding jobs and children? Dh & I have two young dc, I’m pregnant and we both work full time in demanding jobs - we’ve both been catching up with housework and work till midnight every night for a couple of weeks. Obviously we don’t get a lot of time to hang out and we’re in lockdown so the house is a tip without a cleaner. I could not sustain another relationship, full stop. I feel like if you’re in a busy job with young dc you can’t really live this lifestyle.

@timeisnotaline it definitely sounds like you're a time in your life where you're not able to take on any new things - it sounds like it's pretty tough for you right now.

I have a full-on job and two children, they're at secondary school now - but I started being poly when they were much younger, but not babies. And yeah, life's pretty busy. In your case it's worth remembering that your life won't always be like it is now...

I've also got poly friends who started or grew their families while already poly, and it's been pretty awesome to watch, with the extended 'tribe' pitching in and helping, preparing meals, taking other children out for the day, etc. I remember thinking 'God I wish I'd had this level of support when I had babies!'.

My boyfriend and his partner started being poly when their kids were, I think 7, 4 and 1 and both were working full time. Knowing them as well as I do, I think it worked through a lot of collaboration and a fair degree of tolerance for an untidy house! Grin.
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whycantwegoonasthree · 14/10/2021 09:24

@Onthedunes So many questions! That's cool. Others will have different answers, I suspect, but since I'm here and my 8.30 meeting has just been cancelled…

Firstly, it's polyamory not polygamy - which is exclusively one man with many wives. Polyamory is a bit of an etymological mash-up, but it means 'many loves' - it's important, because polygamy comes with a lot of negative associations.

It's not that non-monogamy and polyamory are different things.

Non-monogamy, or as I prefer ethical non-monogamy (because there are plenty of people doing non-monogamy unethically - it's generally called 'cheating') or consensual non-monogamy, is an umbrella term which covers all sorts of ways of being non-monogamous where evryone knows and has agreed to it - from swinging and open marriages right through to full-on co-habiting multi-partner households. Basically anything that's not two people exclusively and only seeing each other. I will use ENM from here on to save typing, ok?

Polyamory is basically one way to be non-monogamous, and is generally taken to mean people who have on-going, romantic and sexual relationships with more than one person. (i.e. not just sexual).

Regarding demographics.

Polyamory, I'm finding as a woman in my mid-forties, is actually most common in the twenty-somethings/millennials. Going to poly meet-ups I often feel like I'm 20 years too old to be there! I think this generation is questioning a lot of societal norms in lots of ways, from how they work, to how they identify, live and love. More power to their elbow, I say.

I guess the other group I come across are people, like me, who tried the conventional monogamous thing, and found it didn't work for them, and sought out another way of doing things. When I was in my 20s I didn't even know poly was a thing - that it was an available option.

I would say what these groups have in common is a degree of flexibility in how they live their lives generally. I think that's something a lot of 20 somethings - certainly here in London - are doing, especially regarding work. There's a lot of self-employment and freelancing, gig-economy stuff. Similarly a lot of the 40-somethings have come out of the other side of a 9-5, and are doing their own thing of have negotiated flexibility into their working life.

Does that make it a middle-class luxury to live this way? I think being middle class makes it easier, sure. (It makes monogamy easier too, hell, it makes a lot of things easier!) Do I think it's necessary? No. And I know plenty of 9-5 employed people in all kinds of jobs who are doing this too. My ex-girlfriend worked in a state school with kids with autism, very much 8am-5pm, very much not well paid. She's one of the most actively poly people I know!

Regarding property rights. I don't think it's so much that poly people are sitting on property and wealth and don't want to share it. I think it's that poly people have got comfortable with a degree of uncertainty on this front, and have decided, for whatever reason, that financial security isn't top of the list of priorities. There are, in fact, a lot of renters in my own immediate network.

When I became poly, I was a single mother of two young children, I had my own business (but it was a young business, with erratic income), any money I had built up was stuck in my marital home and I had to fight to get my hands on it - which took years. By the time all the legal fees had been paid there wasn't a lot left, and I had burned through a lot of it just to keep afloat during that time.

Point being, I had made a decision to walk away from a lot of security - I often describe it as 'putting a bomb under my life'. It was scary, stressful, but ultimately I, and my kids were ok. I realised I could start over, and that all the things I was scared of losing - my home, my financial security - weren't as important as I thought they were. I also learned that planning for the future only gets you so far... because life twists and turns, and none of us really know what will happen.

It doesn't mean I am fiscally irresponsible... it just means that I have grown comfortable with a bit more risk, I guess. Property rights and poly are a minefield, for example, I share a house and a mortgage with my partner, but if he were to die, because we are not married (and he is married to someone else), I would get lumped with a tonne of taxes, which would probably mean I couldn't stay in this house. I love my home, and I love sharing it with him, but if ultimately I have to leave it? So-be-it. Done it before. Can do it again.

Education - well, I think it helps to be smart, and to be prepared to think hard and do plenty of reading. No, I don't think you need to have a degree, or indeed a formal education of any kind. But unlearning centuries of cultural and societal norms, questioning perceived wisdom, understanding the dynamics of poly takes brain-work, for sure. To do poly well, I think you have to be willing and able to engage with it intellectually as well as emotionally.

Do people go back to monogamy after being poly? Yes. Some do. A lot don't. I never will.

Some people do because they meet someone who only wants monogamy, and so they 'give up' poly for that person. That can be very upsetting for the other people they're in relationships with... frankly, it's a sucky thing to do. And, if you're really poly – in your bones, so to speak – it rarely ends well. It never does, does it, when you try to be someone you're not, for the sake of a relationship.

Some people try poly and find it too hard to navigate, and go back to monogamy. I tend not to date 'newly poly' people for that reason.

Some people stay poly in theory, but circumstantially end up living more or less monogamously because of lack of time, or a because a partner becomes ill, or whatever. I've found they generally come back to poly when able.

But generally I'd say if you make the decision to be poly, it's best to aim to commit to it. Because going in to it with an 'suck it and see' mentality means that people will get hurt while you're figuring yourself out.

Blurred lines - not sure what you mean here, but I would say that yes, most of the poly people I know don't have such hard lines between friendships and romance and sex as most of the monogamous people I know. I think that's because poly relationships by their nature have more scope to change and flex over time - and they move through different phases without the 'you're my everything or you're nothing' that can go along with monogamy.

And yes, some people date loads, others date less... Over the last eight years, I've become pretty selective about who I'll date, and tend to prefer fewer, deeper connections, to lots of lighter, more casual ones. My boyfriend likes both, so he has three deep and long lasting relationships, and usually two or three more casual ones. Ditto my ex girlfriend. (She's only ex because she moved away… and is still a close friend.)

Happy to answer questions - it's the only way to dispel myths and challenge preconceptions, so I genuinely thank you for asking them. Sorry my reply is so long!

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timeisnotaline · 14/10/2021 04:52

I do wonder re aishes points- how many of these people have busy demanding jobs and children? Dh & I have two young dc, I’m pregnant and we both work full time in demanding jobs - we’ve both been catching up with housework and work till midnight every night for a couple of weeks. Obviously we don’t get a lot of time to hang out and we’re in lockdown so the house is a tip without a cleaner. I could not sustain another relationship, full stop. I feel like if you’re in a busy job with young dc you can’t really live this lifestyle.

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Onthedunes · 14/10/2021 02:21

So do the majority of NM people tend to live alone and the poly people do not.

Wishful your relationships do sound very open and honest, albeit very time consuming, which leads me to ask would you say to be interested in polygamy you would have to be financially secure to warrant such time being available.
Clearly you have to be educated to a certain degree to negotiate the understandings of so many emotions that are involved in polygamy.

So would you say it is more appealing to say a middle class sector rather than a working class person regarding time and finances.

Another poster mentioned how the Western nations imposed the idea of monogomous relationships onto other civilisations, through colonisation and empire building, ownership which leads to a form of property rights?

Do property rights influence many NM people into making their choice into living this way.
Are most NM people, people who have been in previous LTR or have been married.
Are the women that are in NM relationships usually of a certain age bracket? does it coincide with age, owning their own property or being of an age where parents have died and left property, are NM people more likely to be educated, middle class, property owning people with a much more secure set up, who do not wish to share wealth.

Is it something that is usually life long if you make that decision to live that way or is there any thought that being monogamous may return.

Do the lines blurr in NM relationships, we have heard how people may want to have more connections and are able to be more open about those connections. One lady mentions how she doesn't often come into contact with many men she finds attractive in a year let alone on a regular basis.
Where do you find NM people, is it specific or do you happen across maybe mm who are wanting to connect and find they wern't really available? Does this happen often ? Is there as much honesty in NM as there is polygamy?

Are there any feelings of conflict or snobery between the 2 different ways of lifestyles.

Sorry for the questions, I'm honestly interested in the social aspects of who and what type of people turn to alternative life/love/sex styles.

And excuse my ignorance, I have never knowingly known any poly families. I have known NM people but not ones that actually labelled themselves as that.

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whycantwegoonasthree · 13/10/2021 12:58

@Jamdown123

Polygamous relationships are as old as time. In many parts of the world today men still have several wives, and it is a practice underpinned by some religions. Going back two or three generations it would have been evermore commonplace. It is very orderly in some communities. In traditionally / historically Christian communities of more recent times, not so much.

It's incredible to me that anyone would think it was infrequent, 'different' or in any way special.

I think there are a couple of problems with correlating non-monogamy generally with Polygamy specifically.

Firstly the Polygamy generally is practiced in deeply patriarchal communities and is rooted in misogyny and the associated attempt to control and subjugate women. Oftentimes (and certainly for me) one of the reasons I choose non-monogamy is because of the problems I have with with marriage as an institution in how it supports and strengthens the patriarchy, and with concepts of ownership that come with any kind of monogamy, married or not.

I may belong with people, but I will never belong to someone.

The second is that it's a very western view of the history of relationships. A lot of non-western cultures, ancient and more modern were and are matriarchal or profoundly egalitarian. A lot of them only became monogamous/patriarchal via western colonising and subjugation. In these cultures one woman with many partners were common, as are no concept of pair bonding at all, and a far greater focus on communal living and raising of children. It doesn't matter who the child's biological father is, all the children belong to and are the responsibility of the whole community.

One of the things I like about exploring non-monogamy is that it leads to the question of a tonne of accepted 'norms' that are oftentimes not as helpful or 'normal' as we are led to believe.

"Nuclear families", for example. Not a thing until very recently, not particularly helpful as a model, especially not for women, who often find themselves isolated and unsupported in them.
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DrSbaitso · 13/10/2021 11:57

I have some small experience of this, a long time ago. It was fine at the time, but I realised that I wasn't going to want it if I had small children, for various reasons.

It is one reason why I have a more nuanced view if affairs than most of MN, though. They are wrong, of course. It's always wrong to go behind your partner's back like that and do something you know could hurt them. Trust and honesty matter. But it did make me see that it is possible to have sex with, or care for, another human without lessening your love for your main partner.

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Jamdown123 · 13/10/2021 11:22

Polygamous relationships are as old as time. In many parts of the world today men still have several wives, and it is a practice underpinned by some religions. Going back two or three generations it would have been evermore commonplace. It is very orderly in some communities. In traditionally / historically Christian communities of more recent times, not so much.

It's incredible to me that anyone would think it was infrequent, 'different' or in any way special.

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whycantwegoonasthree · 12/10/2021 14:05

@Ayeshstar2020

There was an interesting article in Nature or a similar publication where’s study had been done on prairie voles which are monogamous and montane voles which are not. Essentially the scientists reduced that the two groups of Voles had a different distribution of vassopressin in the brain, which is a chemical that helps male mammals form social and mating attachments.

I wonder if polyamorous people have different chemicals in their brain?!

Similarly reading 'Sex at Dawn' - or for speed Christopher Ryan's TED talk - suggests that Human's aren't necessarily genetically programmed for Monogamy – and looks at a lot of the societal reasons why humans have chosen it despite their nature.

I'm to saying there aren't good reasons for choosing Monogamy if that's your thing, but there's a growing weight of evidence to suggest that it's a choice rather than a default. Like people choose to be vegan or whatever.

So I wouldn't say we have different chemicals in our brains, we've just made different choices about what to do with the chemicals that are in all our brains.

But there is an ongoing discussion within the non-monogamy community about whether it's a lifestyle choice or a biological orientation – like being homosexual or trans. And there's not clear majority on either camp as far as I can see.

The latter would sort of support your theory – although the way you've worded it, and on the basis of your other posts here, there's a pejorative tone to the proposition which I resent. You seem to imply that poly people are deficient in their ability to form social and mating attachments...

And that's only true if you correlate and increased number of partners with a lack of emotional commitment to those partners. The more relationships you're in, the less committed you are to them - and that's the opposite of my experience.

I go as far as to argue that the opposite is true - people who are doing ethical non-monogamy well are actually extremely able to form, maintain and support emotional connections to others - which is probably why they choose non-monogamy. And often times they do it without relying on a lot of the things that monogamy puts in place to try and facilitate on-going connection. 24/7 co-habitation, prohibition of forming connections with others, etc.

We're confident enough in our attachments that we have decided we don't need a lot of these societal and structural stuff to validate them.

Example - I am very attached, and committed to my partners, and they me. But neither of us require marriage or 24/7 cohabitation to maintain those connections. We don't generally get societal acceptance, come to that, or even the understanding or compassion that most relationships are afforded, and we manage without those too.

www.ted.com/talks/christopher_ryan_are_we_designed_to_be_sexual_omnivores?language=en
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Boonlark · 12/10/2021 09:22

@Ayeshstar2020

There was an interesting article in Nature or a similar publication where’s study had been done on prairie voles which are monogamous and montane voles which are not. Essentially the scientists reduced that the two groups of Voles had a different distribution of vassopressin in the brain, which is a chemical that helps male mammals form social and mating attachments.

I wonder if polyamorous people have different chemicals in their brain?!

.
I doubt it's that simple. I've had long term mono faithful relationships and didn't crave other partners.
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