How often would this work? Suggestion in book- 'The Verbally Abusive Relationship.'

[NoMoreDickheads]

This is just an academic/hypothetical question really, I'm not in a verbally abusive relationship at the moment.
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In this book by Patricia Evans, she said that if we want a verbally abusive partner to change, we could write/say something like this:-

'I will not be responding to you in the usual way. I'm not happy with some of the things I've heard from you. I want to have a really good relationship with you. I would like to see some changes in communication. In the past, I've tried to explain to you what bothered me about some of your behaviours. I do not feel that I have been successful. I assure you that I will be letting you know what I want and what I don't want in our relationship; I have limits and I will let you know immediately if you overstep them. I ask for your co-operation.'

How often do you think this will make a partner stop his abuse? It doesn't seem very likely to me. I don't think they'd take it well.

I suppose maybe it is a last ditch attempt.

[Vodkacranberryplease]

@Pelleas I could not agree more. I had an abusive business partner and tried literally everything on this list except writing an agreement. Even with a solicitor (clear consequences of him having to leave the business) he couldn't help himself.

So I got him out. That worked.

Nothing else ever does.

[Pelleas]

In my personal experience nothing works other than getting the hell out of the relationship.

Not:

Reasoning at the time
Reasoning after the event
Reasoning when in a good mood
Writing
Getting the person to sign an agreement
Pleading
Shouting back
Laughing
Jollying along
Being facetious
Being spiteful
Crying
Threatening
Being silent

There is absolutely nothing you can do to 'change' an abuser and I find the suggestion that a neat little set piece as quoted in the OP is all you need to sort things out to be laughable, if not offensive to anyone who is at their wits' end in an abusive relationship.

[Thelnebriati]

@onemoreuser Do you have a link to that report?

Other reports show that women act in self defense and that gets recorded as abuse, because thats how incidents are recorded.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2968709/

[CloudsCoveredTheSky]

The abuser has to change, not the abused person.

The abused person should probably just fuck off asap.

[onemoreuser]

DV and abuse is very complicated. Its also not always the case that someone is JUST an abuser or that is always clear cut abuser vs abused. Sometimes it is, but its rarely straightforward. I read a report the other day that suggested that women were actually more likely to be violent in a relationship, although men likely to injure more.

[everythingbackbutyou]

@NoMoreDickheads, I will forever credit Patricia Evans for helping me to realize that I was in, at best, a controlling relationship after I read "Controlling People". However, as others have said, there isn't a chance in hell I am going to follow through on some of her suggestions like getting out a video recorder and asking him to repeat what he just said. I think it shows a very basic misunderstanding of the dynamics of abuse and how it can escalate. I really do like her 'teddy' analogy though - it explained to me very clearly why my partner would get upset over ridiculous things like not automatically knowing which kind of restaurant to choose that day. Teddy would know that stuff because his mind is her mind.

[NoMoreDickheads]

Aw it's not that bad 'lol.' The particularly controversial chapter is called 'Responding with Impact to Verbal Abuse.' Most of the rest of it is ok, especially, as PP's have said, the bits describing the different forms of VA.

[Vodkacranberryplease]

Verbally abusive could easily also be another way of saying 'a total dickhead who needs a good slap'. I do wish these stupid authors would stop talking about 'abusive' when what they mean is 'doesn't agree with me'.

They are totally different things and to suggest that ssying 'Stop! You must not do that because it's Abusive!' is batshit. I almost want to read this book for the comedy value actually.

[Vodkacranberryplease]

Yes I agree with the two PP. in fact the book I talk about is very clear that he is not talking about violent or abusive men, there is no 'handling' of that situation other than to potentially keep them at bay while you get prepared to get out safely,

[Thelnebriati]

Assertiveness works as long as both parties are assertive.
An abusive person isn't interested in being assertive. Assertive people aren't interested in being abusive. Its a bad match.

[Heatherjayne1972]

In my experience there was nothing I could say that he wouldn’t find an answer to
Walking away meant he’d follow. Refusing to talk meant violence - until I responded on some way
If id told him to ‘stop it!’ He’d have laughed in my face And carried on

The author seems to be assuming that the abuser is ‘normal’ with a normal thought process and understands consequences and boundaries
They don’t

The only answer is to leave the relationship

[NoMoreDickheads]

Ooooh, will look, thanks! Maybe they renamed it in another edition or something.

[Vodkacranberryplease]

It's the first one but it's actually not - however it's the same author so the content will be the same. Not the Jill Hassan one.

Paul Hauck is a Rational Emotional Therapist (well something like that) and he's really smart and very clear - endless conversations go nowhere. He maps it out and if you can bear to do it (and you get a talking to with lots of examples) then it's incredibly effective. Counter intuitive for many women especially the ones who are used to just putting up with shit.

But he talks about his patients and makes you realise that it all makes sense. It's such an old book and American but absolute gold. The opposite of that stupid crap in the book quote in the original post.

[NoMoreDickheads]

@5LeafPenguin Glad to hear it can help sometimes.

@Vodka - Could it be this one www.amazon.co.uk/People-Drive-Overcoming-Common-Problems/dp/0859697940?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21 'How to Cope With People Who Drive You Crazy?'

Or there's a 'How To Deal With Difficult People' www.amazon.co.uk/How-Deal-Difficult-People-Overcoming/dp/0857085670?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21 By a Jill Hasson.

[Ritascornershop]

Snort, as if. I don’t like this as it puts responsibility onto the abused person’s shoulders. I know I took this on a lot, “of only I hadn’t mentioned subject x twice in one month”, if only I wasn’t “spreading my poison”. Peh. There are no magic words that make an arsehole stop arseholing. They aren’t doing it because they mistakenly think it’s okay and when it’s pointed out in the right script they’ll start being decent.

[Vodkacranberryplease]

Oh good lord that's the biggest pile of shit I've ever seen. Will it work? No.

The best advice I have ever read is by Dr Paul A Hauck 'how to deal with difficult people' but I've just looked at amazon and it's not there. His star book is 'how to be your own best friend' which is available in paperback only and had the same advice.

He's a therapist with a long history of dealing with women who have arsehole husbands. He does a form of CBT and has an amazing protocol set up to deal with tossers, and it has nothing to do with spouting tosh like this.

In fact he says you don't keep talking, you tell that person several times then you stop talking and start consequences.

It will change your life.

[5LeafPenguin]

If you are dealing with what she describes as a judgemental or critical abuser then saying stop it as she suggests can work.

I can't talk for dealing with abusers who deal in one off name calling and can imagine that it wouldn't be as helpful. There are, however, men out there who show the same start up signs and once they warm to their theme will give you 20mins worth of why you have always been crap while your kids are listening. Saying stop it as she suggests ( much as you don't believe it, or ffs find it laughable) will stop them in their tracks and buy you a bit of space or divert them to stuff which is easier to cope with.

It doesn't fix things. It can help.

Leaving the thread now.

[MitziK]

[quote NoMoreDickheads]**@MitziK* As @1235kbm* said earlier in the thread, the start/early on in the book is good where she describes the different kinds of verbal abuse- a lot of people wouldn't quite have realized what was going on with countering or whatever, and other bits where women might respond with trying to explain to the abuser. She does rightly say that's a waste of time.

It's later in the book where it's all 'Oy! Abuser! No!' that it falls down.

Her advice early in the book is to realize the abuser doesn't have good will and isn't trying to make the relationship go well as equals. Later in the book she maybe goes against her own earlier sentiments.

I mean, some men change but I imagine it's quite rare.[/quote]
If a doctor were to publish a book explaining symptoms of different cancers and then, towards the end, tells people to smoke, be overweight, stop exercising and not get smear tests, the second half of the book is still going to cause harm and the entire thing should be removed from sale, no matter how accurate the first part is.

And abuse is as serious as that.

[NoMoreDickheads]

@MitziK As @1235kbm said earlier in the thread, the start/early on in the book is good where she describes the different kinds of verbal abuse- a lot of people wouldn't quite have realized what was going on with countering or whatever, and other bits where women might respond with trying to explain to the abuser. She does rightly say that's a waste of time.

It's later in the book where it's all 'Oy! Abuser! No!' that it falls down.

Her advice early in the book is to realize the abuser doesn't have good will and isn't trying to make the relationship go well as equals. Later in the book she maybe goes against her own earlier sentiments.

I mean, some men change but I imagine it's quite rare.

[1235kbm]

I don't agree, much of the book is very good for explaining emotional abuse. Have you read it?

[BertiesLanding]

The problem with this approach is that it puts the burden of reparenting the abuser on the partner's shoulders - because, at heart, abusers are regressed, dysfunctional and often dangerous adults who need, but rarely seek, help.

Nope. Fuck that for a game of soldiers.

[MitziK]

Ha ha ha!

That would have got me a thousand times more abuse. Some for answering back, some for using big fancy words, some for getting ideas above my station. And probably, nearer the end, bounced off the walls a few times for good measure.

Some people make a lot of money out of desperate people. This author is one of them.

[1235kbm]

Abusers tend to escalate to violence when they are no longer able to maintain dominance and control. However, some start out with abuse and that allows them to maintain is because the survivor is aware of what they are prepared to do. In this case, the abuser is emotionally abusive and yes, challenging them could cause it to escalate.

It's bad advice in that 1. it could cause an escalation and 2. because it may give the survivor false hope that there may be change if they implement the tips.

[NoMoreDickheads]

@JustBeingMoi So sorry you experienced that, and so glad you were able to leave. Wishing you a good recovery.
-
I was thinking last night that some of the suggestions could be outright dangerous. Answering a verbal abuser back- 'Stop right now!' etc etc, I imagine could lead to him responding with physical abuse for the first time or whatever.

[1235kbm]

@JustBeingMoi well done for leaving. I agree with you, many survivors in the fog of abuse are still looking for ways they can fix the relationship, so these 'tips' can keep them there trying or, cause it to escalate. I'm sorry it made you feel that way.

I hope you're ok.