Relationship after split caused by alcoholism (and associated behavior)

[user1475360947]

Hi folks,

I have been advised that I may get more of a response to below thread here rather than in Newbies section, there are a few updates which I can add but they don't really change the dynamic of what I am asking.

I'm a male and looking some advice. I am 37 and have recently split from my wife, the main factor in this being the fact that I am an alcoholic (I had been drinking 8 -10 beer per night and probably more on weekends) I am what would be described as a high functioning alcoholic, I got up and went to work in the morning and all the bills etc were paid and paid on time.

My wife left after one of many arguments just over a month ago. She says she had been unhappy for years and had been shielding my step daughter and son from my drinking and moods following drink - I would stress there has never been any violence in our relationship.

There have been issues with dsd ref use of alcohol and drugs - and when she wasn't behaving I may have gone too far in trying to get her to behave (possibly grounding for too long, not speaking to her, or blcompletely banning her from the internet). I have also been grumpy when not drinking the following day. Dsd is now 19 and recently dropped out of university (since, but not related to split with dw)

We also have a son who is ten years old. I also would have been in moods with him or been quick to anger when he did things which he shouldn't (kicking football in house etc)

OH has said that she has been unhappy and hasn't loved me for years, but in the other hand says that she does care for me and the final straw was over her going guarantor for a flat for dsd which I was not happy about (daughter isn't even named on flat lease)

Following split from OH I have enrolled in a recovery programme, they couldn't take me straight away and I immediately started in AA, I am sober today and have been for the past month.

The issue is OH won't take me back, I know I can't expect it straight away or possibly ever but was just wondering if any of you have been through similar and if there is anything I can do....I love my wife and would do ANYTHING to get her back, however she will not do anything to work towards it, won't think of marriage counseling, refused Al anon, and won't even consider going for coffee.

I'd appreciate any advice good or bad, as I say I'm in recovery, have a better relationship with my son and am trying to build bridges with step daughter.

[Iwouldratherbemuckingout]

I'm sorry that I've not RTWT. I've been in the same position as your DW, and maybe it might help a little if I tell you of my experience.

My ex got sober, but it was just too late. I'd had too many years of being worn down by the alcohol abuse (your description is very familiar). I still loved him when it finally ended, but it took me quite some time to do my own healing. Please don't underestimate how much of her own healing process your DW will have to go through. My advice would be to acknowledge that and give her that time and space, I can only speak for myself, but certainly it would take a lot longer than a month for me to believe that sober was a very real prospect, and to trust.

Congratulations on becoming sober, I hope you and your DW have a happy future, it will take time to find out if it's possible for that to be one together.

[EasyToEatTiger]

For decades, I suffered from eating disorders. It was utter hell for me. It was utter hell for everyone around me. Although I cannot take responsibility for the events surrounding the onset of using food as a way to cope with life, I was given the opportunity, through loads of NHS support, to have a choice or sorts. Now as an adult, although I still slip around, I am more inclined to find ways to live instead of ways to die. People with eating disorders are hell to be around. Alcoholics are hell to be around. Your behaviour, at least at the moment, sounds the same. You are doing so well keeping dry. As others have said, the drug bit is the easy bit. It's all the other shit, the behaviours, the habits that need to change. It won't happen overnight. Hopefully one day you will emerge and be able to look back. I don't think it is helpful to blame people for causing problems, unless blame is truly appropriate. I think most people fall into things because something has happened. At least, OP you recognise that. It's really not a time for suicide, but a time to embrace the unfamiliar, be kind to yourself, and learn to see people in a different light.

[lostinthedarkplayground]

Re 'what other people have done'. What you are saying is 'yeah I acted like a jerk but I wouldn't have if they hadn't done that. My behaviour was terrible but I was provoked'. Even if you only say the 'my behaviour was terrible' stuff, but referring to the incident, you are shifting the blame subconsciously, trying to get the reader to realize to recognize they are being unreasonable by judging you for your reaction.

Dude, people are going to do shit things all your life. How you react is the measure of the man you are. You cannot control other people's behaviours, only your own.

Like now. You are cross/ upset/ sulking/ frustrated because your wife won't respond in the way you want her to, to your newly sober behaviour. And worse, you are implicitly criticising her for the way she reacted to your drinking. Implying that she got her response wrong, because she should have made more of an effort to reach out to you/ challenge you/ whatever you think she should have done that would have made you question your drinking.

Whether or not you are saying it outright, your words and actions show very clearly that you believe deep down that your wife holds some culpability.

Most people living with alcoholics work out pretty quickly that they can not exert any control over their partner's drinking, or their behaviour, and that any attempt at intervention/ conflict makes the situation worse. So they withdraw for self-protection and to protect their children. Because they know that the alcoholic is the only one responsible for the alcoholic's behaviour. And nothing that a partner can say or do will make positive changes. Usually it gets turned around to 'see? This is why I have to drink. You.'

I'm sure you think you are saying all the right things. But you don't understand them. And you are confusing a desire to make amends for clear headedness about your situation.

[HuckfromScandal]

All your posts go back to
Being an arsehole when you were drinking does not stop you being an arsehole when you stop drinking - you're just a sober arsehole instead of a drunk one....
Stop behaving like an arsehole.

[GetOutMyCar]

I got those letters too. They felt like a continuation of the selfish manipulation.

[therealpippi]

A long time ago, after hurting my then boyfriend (not alcoholism) I wrote those letter to him. Lots of them.
I truly believe I was doing it because I loved him and that I was sincere. It is only later, much later, that I realised that all I wanted was to regain control. And when I said I was sorry I was only sorry in words, with my head.
Only later I realised I was suffocating, stalking and making him wanting me even less. I suppose what I was trying to avoid was the truth - it was the end, it had been for a long time. But I was fixated on not letting him go.

I had to suffer a lot to understand all that but I am glad. It teaches you and it makes you a better person.

[GetOutMyCar]

I was also the wife. In my experience alcoholics are manipulative and utterly selfish. Your posts here have done nothing to assuage that. They are extrememly 'me, me, me, me' and are dripping with faux remorse, manipulation and focus on getting what you want.

There is nothing in them to suggest you are genuinely taking responsibility or understanding the effect of your drinking on your family.

For example, you talk in a very blase way about how you wife avoided conflict but you don't know why. If she's like me and all the other women I met at Al-Anon it will be because she was utterly terrified of you and you moods. She has probably spent years walking on egg shells, terrified that one wrong foot will trigger you. Years positioning herself as a 'buffer zone' between you and her children so that she takes the brunt of your behaviour, desperately trying to protect her children from the damage you were inflicting on them.

You don't appear to have the first clue about the seriousness of the damage you have inflicted on her over the years. To give you an idea, I still see a therapist today because of the damage done to me as a result of living with an alcoholic and I got out of that relationship over 20 years ago.

[marplesmarbles]

I'm afraid OP you are getting the same responses....because......living with an alcoholic is hell. 10 weeks sober is nothing. Nothing at all. It's a fantastic start for your new life but not a carte blanche to start again with the slate wiped clean. This argument you use when you ask what "we" want- prison, 30 lashes, suicide whatever is a defensive and unhelpful response. What would I want? For you to be sober. For you to be the best father you can be. For you to leave me alone and never play my son against me (that was badly judged and yes, I have read your response to it and no it doesn't explain your choice to ask your son where he wanted to stay).

You seem to be unhealthily focused on your wife. If you love something, let it go. This would be a true act of love. Let her start again, it's not all about you.

[Offred]

And to be quite honest she broke up with you. She doesn't want to consider getting back with you. You have written that yourself. You know it.

Writing her letters at this point is actually just verging on harassment.

Please respect her wishes.

You might be thinking 'but I am not an alcoholic now' which is dodgy anyway so soon but she is remembering you as the man she needed to protect her children from - it doesn't matter why you are/were that man, only that you are/were. Her lived experience of being with you is not wiped out by you having stopped drinking for a short period of time.

[Wildberryprincess]

I'm going to come back to the 10 weeks of sobriety and how this does not make up for years of abuse. And yes, being a grumpy and moody alcoholic is abusive.
I'm also flabbergasted that you somehow seem to think that all your dsd problems have nothing to do with you, and are somehow separate from your family life. A child that has difficulties is going to find those issues even harder to deal with when her mother is tense and anxious because she has a grumpy and moody alcoholic husband.
It sounds to me like you have got to 10+ weeks and think everything should be forgiven and forgotten. That's not possible.
Even the way you describe trying to control your drinking and becoming grumpy by wednesday because you had abstained from sunday is making me feel the rage. Because you still don't get it.
Even the overnight arrangements with your son. You say you had had him for a long time, but that he was going away for 8 days and you wouldn't see him so you thought it would be nice for you to have him another night - despite your wife being in tears? Somehow, it's still about you and your needs.
You brought this on yourself, you chose to drink, you chose to be grumpy and moody and 'overstrict' with your children. You made yourself an alcoholic. You were selfish. It's not because of some disease that drifted in through a window and somehow affected you. For whatever reason (genetics, some undiagnosed condition like ADHD/autism whatever), you might be more susceptible to alcoholism, but you still chose to make it so.
Your wife (and your children) had years of unhappiness foisted upon her by someone else.
I know other alcoholics that have done the introspective thing and apologised to those they have hurt as part of a recovery program, but I don't think you are there yet. You still think you have an excuse. Nobody cares about your excuses.
You will need to accept the hurt your wife and children feel. For a long time. Stop trying to fix them, you can't do that.

[Offred]

Seriously, you have three threads all the same OP in three different places. The only advice really is to leave her alone and focus on being sober and a parent.

The objective truth is that literally anybody is less of a risk and a better prospect for a relationship than you for her right now. Not to mention that she will have healing of her own to do before she is even able to be in a relationship.

You need to give her up - for her, for your children and for yourself.

You've messed it all up with your alcoholism and you can't go back and undo that. What you can do is look forward to a future that isn't messed up by alcoholism.

[Offred]

And also 'maybe she would have been different if she hadn't grown up around an angry alcoholic'

[Offred]

If I received a letter from my alcoholic ex who was pressuring me to get back with him and it was full of crap my daughter had done I'd think 'fuck you dickwad you still don't get it'.

[FATEdestiny]

It seems to me that no matter what I say on this forum it will be wrong,

With the title to this thread, this is inevitable I am afraid. You will get a whole heap of projection, anger and bitterness dumped on you from the "survivers" of alcoholic relationships. I think its going to be difficult to avoid that.

You say the letter is passive aggressive

No. I didn't. I said pretending all the blame is yours even when it's obvious its actually someone else's fault is passive-aggressive. It is.

For what it's worth I think you are doing well.

But there will be still lots of critical and painful analysis of your personality to come. You being defensive to my post is just part of that.

Pat on the back for doing well. You have much more to do though. Reaching the point where you show genuine remorse without caveat is the next challenge you face. Being defensive to those like me who suggest this is of no benefit. Arguing the case will not mean you therefore must be genuinely remorseful.

how should I show genuine remorse?

There is only one person on this planet who can answer that.

Being defensive when being challenged on this is not a great sign you are there yet though.

Yet. I added a "yet" to that sentence.

Finally fwiw your defensive post above reads with a controlling tone. The tone of "How dare you question my genuine remorse", rather than a better tone of "my remorse is not yet embedded enough to be obvious to all, so I still need to work on this".

You will be challenged in your journey to sobarity - here on mn and in real life - many, many times over many, many months to come. If you are getting defensive and sick of being asked to justify yourself now, how will you be next Christmas when it's still happening?

[userformallyknownasuser1475360]

Irene, sorry for the above, thank you for your input, I'm doing my best as regards DS

[userformallyknownasuser1475360]

Fatedestiny, I realise you do not know the full situation, but the things that other people have done are not things that I have done or that DW has done, they refer to other family members who have done things that both DW and I were agreed upon as being wrong - I'm not going to get into specifics but they are things that DSD has done - they have had an impact because of the issues raised and the attempts to correct it, but as I said it isn't about what they have done - more about my (bad) reaction to it

And no, I don't accept that I am not taking the blame for what I have done, the letter is not passive aggressive in anyway - the letter is saying what I have done, how I felt at the time and why I did what I did.

you say What you really mean is: "I'll pretend all the blame is mine, even though I know that it partly yours. Further, you know you're to blame anyway because it is glaringly obvious". its not, and what you are saying in this has no evidential basis whatsoever - you say that I have a lack of genuine remorse, tell me then what it would take to show "genuine remorse" you think I have no remorse for what I have done to my wife, I'v posted it before to someone else who just came on here to abuse -

As I asked earlier is it time for me to lock myself in a tower? time to commit suicide? maybe 30 years in prison will be good enough. You seem to be giving a lot of answers so how should I show genuine remorse?

You say the letter is passive aggressive, I don't know how you can say that without having had sight of the letter, did it ever occur to you that I might want to send a letter so that DW doesnt have to sit down and talk to me about it, did it ever occur that knowing DW better that I think this might be the thing that wouyld work for her - I don't know if it will but i know that a blazing row wouldn't

It seems to me that no matter what I say on this forum it will be wrong, if I leave it and say nothing then I'm not facing up to responsibility or taking responsibility for my action. If I try and talk to DW then I am pestering her and hurting her, if I try and do it in a way that is least invasive I am passive aggressive.

[IrenetheQuaint]

I'm not sure that writing long emotional letters with a specific end in mind ever really works. She will just feel ever more pushed and manipulated.

Just organise a visitation schedule for your son that works for both of you (and keep to it), be reliable and sensible in matters to do with your son, and keep going to AA meetings. Anything else can wait for a year or so.

[FATEdestiny]

I have sat today and wrote a letter to DW...

...where it is glaringly obvious someone had done something they shouldn't I've said in the letter that it is about what I have done, not others.

This ^ is not someone who has accepted responsibly.

This is the relationship equivalent to a sticking plaster.

You say: "The letter is for me to take responsibility for what I have done."

What you really mean is: "I'll pretend all the blame is mine, even though I know that it partly yours. Further, you know you're to blame anyway because it is glaringly obvious".

Do you not think your wife will see through this lack of genuine remorse?

It's passive-agressive to boot.

[userformallyknownasuser1475360]

Aussie bean....I took your advice and have gone through the letter again...there isn't. I don't say that to be smug, but hopefully to give a bit of insight into the spirit of the letter. The letter is for me to take responsibility for what I have done.

Dw did avoid conflict, I don't know why, it. Could be because of the way I acted...but I don't know.

Again not blaming dw....the only thing I could see happening at the time was that I was drinking too much...because I was drinking I didn't notice the other things, or possibly and more likely didn't care. The thing is I can't make amends if I don't know what I did?

If I wasn't taking responsibility it would be very easy for me just to ignore the comments on this thread call everyone assholes and go back to doing things my way

[Aussiebean]

I think the problem that people are trying to point out is that you haven't taken all the responsibility.

You talk about writing the letter to take responsibility for your action, but you HAVE to mention that your wife always avoid conflict. There have been a few posts where you needed to point out that she didn't tell you how hurt she was. No matter how bad you were, you HAVE to mention her blame

If you were feeling really responsible for your own action you would not have even mentioned it. You would have not given her any of the blame.

Have a re read of the letter. Is there any part of it where you say to her 'if only you had told me how bad it was!' ?

[userformallyknownasuser1475360]

Folks,
I'm not making excuses, I am an alcoholic, have been for years, and should have gotten help years ago, there are various reasons why I didn't, but yes I should have got help sooner.

Controlling the addiction didn't work for me, and I did try, sometimes this made things worse, I ended up in worse moods at times when I was sober and trying to control drinking, than I did when I was drinking (think a Weds night when craving a drink since Sunday but knowing a I couldn't get one until work finished on a Friday)

The reason for the letter was for me to take responsibility for what I know I have done, and part of that was to sit down and concentrate on what I have done so that I can see what I have done. Dw would have (;prior to meeting me, and to this day still) done anything to avoid confrontation, this would include telling me when she was annoyed or not happy. I am trying to empathise and see what life was like for DW...so that I can make amends

Pontification, you made s comment about wanting my wife back no matter what she wants, that isn't true, I know firstly that there is no point in hat because six weeks or months down the line we would be in the same position. I love my wife, I want my wife to be happy, and I've said it in here a number of times, although I want that to be with me, if it takes her to be happy without me so be it.

[HuckfromScandal]

^^
Yes
Exactly what both these people have said.
you are so far from being anything other than an alchoholc who doesn't drink that you cannot see it.

You're wife would be totally insane to take you back at this juncture.
Becisse I guarantee you would drink again.

Stop.
Look at yourself.
And stop looking outside for blame, recriminations and absolving of responsibility.

You may be an alcoholic, but you chose to drink and be an arsehole with it.
You can chose not to drink, but whether you can stop being an arsehole remains to be seen.

I've seen a lot of people who have gotten sober - who still behave like selfish pricks
Try not to be one of them.

[Wildberryprincess]

User, you are still lacking insight into how horrible your behaviour has been. I'm feeling angry just reading your posts. Obviously I have my own experiences, which would have been similar to your wife's, which are being triggered by the excuses you are coming out with. Well done on your recent sobriety, but 10 odd weeks does not make up for the years of shit.

You describe yourself essentially 'not violent, but moody' - you haven't a f*ing clue how that sort of behaviour effects those you were moody/grumpy around. For how many years? You would have made your wife's life hell. And you still don't get it.

I'm sorry for being intolerant, but I can imagine how your wife feels. You obviously can't just yet.

[pontificationcentral]

I think you underestimate the hurt you have caused, user. In using addiction as a scapegoat, you are expecting your wife to be able to separate the hurt that you have caused to her and your son, and the damage to your family away from you and hang it on 'addiction'.
Of course, you are able to do this. You see it as a separate entity, and one that is no longer a part of you.
But it is you that has hurt your wife, your son, and your family.
At this point, you and your addiction are completely entwined in her mind.

It is going to take some time as a sober man and a sober parent for her to be able to separate you from your addiction.
You rocking up and chirruping about how dry you are, and how wonderful life is, and whisking your son away, will stand in dramatic counterpoint to how fucking abysmal her life has been for years.
It's not an overnight fix.

I've seen my friend do what you are doing about twelve times in the last four years. She gets pissed off, frustrated and irritable that no one can see how fucking amazing she is dry, and how everyone blames her for her illness/ addiction, and how unfair it all is, because she doesn't drink any more, and fuck me, she's fantastic.

When she drinks, she is an abusive bitch.

But when she's sober, she expects everyone to ignore how terribly she has treated them for years, how much she has hurt them, and how her behaviour has affected their own mental health in terrible, awful, life long ways.

But hey, she's sober! Pink clouds everywhere!

It is not possible for the friends and family of an alcoholic to immediately segregate a history of damaging behaviour from you just because you have decided you don't drink anymore.

It's going to take a bloody long time for her to trust you. You writing letters to assign blame is not going to help at all. Friends and family of alcoholics are quite used to the lying, the twisting of arguments and facts, and the inability to accept blame, except where it is being offered as a deal to whatever the alcoholic wants. Alcoholics are by their very nature extremely selfish, and will stop at nothing until they get what they want.

You deciding you want your wife and son back, whether or not she feels the same way, is an extension of this entitled behaviour, even though you don't recognize it as such.

You still have a lot of work to do.

[HuckfromScandal]

For the love of all things
Don't send the letter.

You want to run before you can walk.

Just concentrate on being a good dad.

• a good man.
  

If it is going to work with your wife, you constantly pushing and writing and pestering will most certainly make sure that never happens...
Please please listen to me.