I know I've got a DH problem but how do I change that?

[Beebuzy]

I've had to nc as no doubt this will out me.

I know that my real issue is DH and not FIL but I don't know how to change it. DH is just so conditioned to his DF and his attitude and the fact that whatever he says goes and can't be challenged. They all tipped around him.

To be honest I've also done it for over 10 years although I've always complained to DH that how his DF treats him and his siblings and others isn't right. I've kept it in whenever he's made litter remarks or comments to me for the sake of DH. Fil will not tolerate being challenged and he goes radio active if he is.

It's no secret that he doesn't like any of the partners his children have chosen including me but his attitude to me has gotten worse since I had my DC 2 years ago. He lives over 100 miles away so we don't see him often but when we do I get little digs made or the last 3 times I've been shouted at. This time I couldn't take anymore after almost a week of digs I answered him back and all he'll broke lose.

He was imposing in my face, a trade of verbal abuse followed and I told him that I was taking DC and leaving. He tried to take DC from me and continued the abuse all the while DH just sat there saying nothing. So yes I know DH is the real problem.

He's made excuse after excuse for his DF behaviour, he's tried to justify it and put his head in the sand.

For me it's really shook what I believed of our relationship, I'd always felt if push came to shove he would stand with me and he didn't he let me get a verbal bashing.

The flying monkeys have been in contact asking DH to tow the line and right now I'm trying to figure out how to save my marriage as I can't see a way forward from this when DH knows Fil was wrong and admits it but can't/won't stand with me.

How do I snap him out of the FOG as current I'm being portrayed as the evil person wanting to go nc and wrecking their relationship as I know what fil is like and should put up with it

[Memoires]

No, he probably didn't really take that in; years of being bullied by the bastard has normalised that behaviour to dh so that he won't be able to appreciate the full extent of its wrongness. At the time of that Xmas, your dh was probably also distracted with worry about you and the baby,mso much much easier to ignore a parent's dreadful behaviour.

Now it's different. He might just be thinking that back then you were pg and stressed already and so this time it'll be OK and different, and it's quite likely that his dad will have said something implying that too.

If you were to start checking availability for you and the children to spend Xmas elsewhere - country house hotel, cruise, anything! - would he start thinking sensibly about the situation,mdo you think?

[Beebuzy]

Hell will freeze over before I spend Christmas with him. I've told DH that he's welcome to spend it with his father how me and DC will be spending it in our home without him and he will have to travel and stay with FIL.


The last time FIL came for Christmas I was heavily pregnant and he ruined the day for me. DH was a different person and refused to participate in any of our usual Christmas traditions we've come to do over the years and he entertained FIL whist I did all the cooking and was ignored.

The end result was me in tears upstairs and a massive row. It was of course dismissed as me being hormonal but after a few days DH had to ask FIL to leave early as I'd had enough and told him I was leaving otherwise.

I've no idea how that conversation went and don't really care but I expect it wasn't anywhere near the truth.

I was so stressed out by it that I ended up in hospital a few days later with pregnancy complications and spent weeks worried my DC was coming early.

I think the effects of that scared DH but I'm not sure he truly appreciated that his father was the stressor

[ijustwannadance]

I bet the actual conversation was more like your FIL telling your DH he needs to keep you in check.

It's so ingrained in your DH's behaviour to do as he is told to placate his DF. He clearly reverts back to scared little boy rather than grown man, but the fact he did absolutely nothing when your FIL was verbally attacking you in front of his children speaks volumes.

It's not your relationship he needs counselling for.

If it was me, I would phone FIL personally and tell him he fuck right off if he thinks he is stepping over your doorstep ever again, let alone over xmas. The cheeky fucker. He'd be expecting you to play the gracious hostess. Fuck that.

[ImperialBlether]

I would leave home rather than spend Christmas with your FIL. For me, it would be grounds for divorce.

Your FIL will now know that you are willing and able to stand up to him, so he'll be pulling out all the stops with your husband. It's going to take a hell of a lot of strength on your part to cope with that.

[Beebuzy]

So after a bit of probing DH has admitted that he only told FIL not to "have a go" at me anymore.

I'm actually wondering if DH finds FIL behaviour and abuse acceptable or not a big deal.

[Beebuzy]

So as a bit of an update I don't think DH has listened to a word is said about going nc with FIL as he's just asked if he can come here for Christmas.

I didn't answer him I asked him when he planned to speak to FIL about his behaviour and he said he already had.

Obviously this phone call if it happened wasn't when I was present. I asked if he made it clear HE found it unacceptable and he mutter yes and said that it wouldn't happen again from FIL.

I'm not having him here at Christmas not a chance I don't want to be near him let alone have him ruin my Christmas as he's done previously.

I'm also not confident that DH has spoken to FIL at all. I'm not sure when he would have had time to do it without me being there and I'm not convinced he's got the confidence to actually have that conversation so I don't know where to go here.

I don't want to call him a liar or appear to be confrontational with him about it but it's clear that even after me being explicit that dc and I will no longer be having contact with FIL and the reason why that DH seems to think I'm joking or that I can be persuaded otherwise

[RandomMess]

Urgh.

I would be confident in asking your DH and the flying monkeys "Why do you think x & y (other GC) no longer have contact with nasty abusive FIL?"

[Clarion]

I have a similar issue with my mil and my DH, though MIL's abuse is more covert than your FIL's. I ended up seeing a counselor which helped DH see that I wasn't over reacting to his mother's behaviour and that we needed to address it.

Your FIL relies on fear to manipulate those around him. Remember that your DH has been brought up thinking that this is normal. He has been conditioned to be afraid of his father and he knows that nobody has ever fared well from standing up to him. Therefore he won't have a clue how to make things better.

It took years to get my DH to admit that his mother is problematic, and longer to get him to start sticking up for us.

Be gentle but firm with your DH. Ask him to help support you as a family. Point out how important it is that you work together to protect your DC from these displays of aggression. Work out strategies before visits. For example, if FIL kicks off, you get up and calmly leave with your children. Leaving the situation takes away his power.

Good luck x

[Memoires]

Ooh, so fil - an abusive arsehole - thinks that cutting your abusive arsehole parents out of your life is disgraceful? Can't think why he'd take that stance

Yes, you have a dh problem, so it's a question of either
bringing him gently round to seeing what his dad is like and then acting on it, or
slapping him in the face with face with what his dad is like, or
just keeping out of fil's way yourself and hoping that he won't bad-mouth you too badly in front of your dcs.

The second one has happened. DH must be affected by it and it must surely give him a glimmer, which I hope reading one of the Forward books which encourage into a light.

How you choose to go forward depends so much on what your dh says when he stops feeling defensive - nothing much positive can come until he stops feeling attacked (not your fault, natural reaction) and can start being honest without fear.

[ThisIsPlanetEarth]

Beebuzy- for you

My parents had a toxic relationship when we were growing up and my childhood was difficult but nothing like yours or your DH. One of my siblings didn't speak to my DM for ages. I think as I've got older and had DC of my own I have some empathy towards them, my DF was a bad tempered sod but is disabled now and they get on better now than they ever did.
It shows how your FIL's deluded thinking that it doesn't matter how badly you treat people, they should still be loyal to you. You are a brave and strong woman who has decided that you are not going to tolerate this behaviour even if they are family. Thank you for explaing FOG, I think this probably happens in a lot of families. Hope you and your DH find peace and a solution x

[Beebuzy]

Gymn I've long thought some of our other issues stem from FIl.

I didn't have a great upbringing, my parents were neglectful and physically abusive to me and my sibling. I've always been aware of that and the impact of my upbringing and I suppose because my abuse was physically it's easier for DH to recognise that as abuse and for him to see nothing wrong with his upbringing or family dynamic.

I don't talk with either of my parents as I couldn't tolerate their minimising the abuse and I soon found they had no interest in me at all once I started standing up to them in my late teens.

DH understands why I don't talk to my parents but FIL things it's disgraful that I could cut my parents off regardless of what they have done as they are still my parents and raised me and it can't have been as bad as I described.

[Gymnopedies]

Your other couple problems might be related to FIL.
I also put up with a similar situation for 10 years. We made progress after I read the stately homes thread and associated links. His mum fits all the criteria for narcissistic personality disorder. After an incident, although he admited she had been unreasonable, he always had digs at me or say I didn't make enough efforts, etc... But once he had read the info he could not say anymore that it was my fault/coming from me. I also later realised that the reason he was never putting the DCs and me first was because he has narcissistic tendencies himself and he had a skewed view of what the family should be (he thought he was meant to serve me and the DCs were then a bit of an annoyance when I thought we should be a team to take care of the DCs and help them grow up well).
To put it simply, I found DH was often in a FOG (particularly if I did not look happy), but also alternating between narcissistic and codependent ways (where he was acting like his mum or dad).

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

This is how you deal with flying monkeys.

"Listen" to Flying Monkeys. Don't react. Then ask if they feel strongly about this. When they agree, point out they reached this conclusion without asking about your needs, so you aren't interested in what they have to say. End conversation.

[Beebuzy]

Attila I think you've hit the nail on the head with my DH. I genuinely feel so sorry for him. He's full of fear when we visit his dad and he's stated my confront his dad was his worst nightmare.

I've played along with their charade and that's been my mistake. It's never been a secure that FIL disliked me but tolerated me to a point and I've fallen in line with the rest of the family. His abuse towards me has intensified since having my DC and to be honest I've been less tolerant of his behaviour since then too.

I don't want to elaborate too much but FIL has other grandchildren whom are adults and whom don't really see or speak to him much. They too are too afraid to challenge him and have been encouraged to lie to him for years so as to avoid conflict or his disapproval and I had decided before we had DC that I wasn't going to engage in that behaviour and neither would my DC.

I've been low contact with FIL since the DC came along as I wasn't willing to travel that distance to visit with a baby and he visit us only on a rare occasions. He believes that as the head of a family they all should all go to him, going low contact I believe has made him worse when I do see him so my only way forward for me and DC is NC.

I don't want to upset and stress my DH more than he is by going NC but I can only hope that somehow me and the DC not being there makes him realise.

I just need to get rid of the flying monkeys whom keep calling to get DH to tow the line and make me fall back in line also.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Your only errors here were to actually played along with the family charade the past ten years as well as putting up with verbal rubbish from FIL for the sake of DH.

Toxic family members can use their moody behavior to get preferential treatment, because… well… it just seems easier to quiet them down than to listen to their grouchy rhetoric. Don’t be fooled. Short-term ease equals long-term pain for you in a situation like this. Decide this minute not to be influenced by their behaviour. Stop tiptoeing around them or making special pardons for their continued belligerence. Constant drama and negativity is never worth putting up with. If someone in your family over the age 21 can’t be a reasonable, reliable, respectful adult on a regular basis, it’s time to speak up and stand your ground.

Families like your DH's of origin do not and never have played by the "normal" rules governing familial relations. Your DH has not fundamentally altered either; he is still playing out the same roles assigned to him as a child.

Your FIL was not a good parent to any of his children and will not ever be a decent sort of grandparent to your children either. Why subject them at all to him?. He being family is not a good enough reason either, you would not have tolerated any of this behaviour from a friend.

Your DHs own inertia (from being conditioned by his dysfunctional family of origin) is simply hurting him as well as you. He is deeply mired in fear, obligation and guilt when it comes to his dad; he is still that frightened little boy from all those years ago. He still wants his dad's approval and is very much obligated to him; that is partly why he is phoning his dad in secret.

BACP are good and do not charge the earth. Be clear as RandomMess says that you require therapy. I would also suggest that in the meantime you read "Toxic Inlaws" written by Susan Forward as a starting point.

[OliviaBenson]

Why is he ringing FIL in secret and so often? I hope you find a good councillor op, but I think it's going to be a long and hard path for you.

[DontMindMe1]

this isn't my normal loving caring husband, I don't recognise this man today

He is the same man he has always been - you just didn't want to see it. Instead, you chose to go along with the 'happy families' charade. If you had stood up to fil and layed out your boundaries from the beginning you would have seen this side to him early on.

Fil is no doubt dripping poison in your dh ear - and he lets him. This is a man who will not stand up for you and he won't stand up and protect his children when fil turns his ire on them.

I would never allow my dc to visit with a racist homophobe - especially when the 'responsible' parent cannot stand up to the abuser.

[user1471470055]

To me, this is a 'journey into manhood' scenario. Most men struggle to stand up to their fathers, and for many it comes only when they have their own family, which gives them the strength to find their way to a new relationship. But it's not yet happened for your DH.
Perhaps he needs to hear it from other men, that this is a door he has to step through. In my experience it's a lot easier when you finally stand up - nothing like the confrontation you might imagine. That's something he would benefit from knowing.

[Beebuzy]

I couldn't and wouldn't make him choose between me and FIL, their relationship isn't my problem but I have told DH today that I can't have contact with FIL anymore and I don't want the DC to have contact either until I'm confident that DH could sufficiently stand up to his dad and challenge his behaviour.

He's agreed for me to contact some therapist's about counselling as a couple, he won't go on his own which is fine small steps are enough for me at the moment.

I thought he hadn't spoken to FIL since we left however I've discovered today that he's been phoning him in secret from his mobile. We were out yesterday and he disappeared for a short time and it turns out he was on the phone and I've noticed it again today. I'm not really interested in what FIL has to say but it worries me he's speaking to him out of earshot, I know FIL and he won't let drop what's gone on and will go on and on about me so part of me is worried that he's speaking to him away from me so that if FIL does mention me he doesn't have to defend me and can ignore it.

Maybe I've now become paranoid

[balence49]

I have been through this. Enough is enough. If he won't stand up for you, which he clearly won't. Then that would be it for me. No contact at all and leave his relationship with his dad up to him.
I did this and not surprisingly years down the line the relationship has fizzled out as coz I stopped arranging visits they didn't happen. Now he can see exactly what was the problem and is glad to be away from him.

[BitterAndOnlySlightlyTwisted]

Your poor husband! In his father's presence he goes back to being that frightened, bullied little boy.

OP, please try not to feel betrayed by his lack of support when FIL abused you. The poor man is most likely being torn utterly in two.

It would be perfectly reasonable to insist that you won't be in this arsehole's presence ever again and neither will your children be exposed to his abuse. Husband can see his father whenever he likes but it will be alone from now on.

Please don't force him to choose between you and FIL unless you are fully prepared for the decision you least want.

[Andro]

ThisIsPlanetEarth

FOG = Fear, , Obligation and Guilt.

[RandomMess]

The advice I was given in finding a good therapist was to get a list of the BCAP website then ring them up and chat to them about the issues. Get a feel for the "chemistry" between you and therapist - do they get the issue, do they feel they can help, did you feel you could be open and honest with them?

Are they happy to challenge you, give you homework (certain things to think about or behaviours to practice. Be clear you want therapy rather than counselling.

Go for your initial meeting and see how it goes, do you "click" with them at some level. If you don't try some others.

[chattygranny]

I had exactly the same issue as you and you have my sympathies. Sadly, although my fil died many years ago it can still cause friction between my OH and me. The whole family tiptoed around him too. My OH would always protect me against anyone else and I was very young when I came into the family (my DG was kind) so I didn't nip it in the bud. Unfortunately I think there are a lot of families like that. One of my dc has married into a family where everyone tiptoes round the mother. Her OH is torn in two and her FIL is broken but long established habits are hard to break. I feel for you all and wish we had had counselling years ago so maybe that will help as long as you find someone good.

[ThisIsPlanetEarth]

My FIL is on his own now too and has poor health, he is all sweetness and light now when he sees DH (and me on the rare occasions ). Maybe if all the siblings got together and said to him his behaviour is unacceptable he might back down a bit. Are they worried they might get written out of his will??!!