is this abusive behaviour and if so what kind of abuse?

[mummymummypony]

I separated from my ex very officially a couple of months back. It has been an emotional rollercoaster but I am quite happy on my own now. I do miss him and it is hard because I genuinely saw myself being with him forever. We had a very passionate relationship and love/d each other deeply which I don't doubt at all. But, he comes from a toxic family who are emotionally, psychologically and at times verbally abusive. They are also mysogynistic but my ex didn't pick that up as much as the former issues.

So now I'm stuck in a conundrum because I need to find a way to explain why and how his behaviour is abusive and damaging but as it was mainly emotional abuse, it's hard to put it into words. I'm hoping that if I can give a few examples, maybe someone out there will be able to help me out in giving his behaviour some kind of title or a good way to concisely explain it, iyswim .

So here goes. When he would be stressed, he would withdraw and treat me badly through speaking to me and behaving towards me like I was a burden. His tone of voice would be rude and his body language would be as if my presence was a nuisance. Rolling eyes, huffing and puffing when I would speak, frowning at me and acting like I was talking nonsense all the time, even when I would be talking about day to day things or whatever was on TV. A good example of this was one occasion when he came home from work and as we were watching TV, I was commenting on what was going on and he asked me if I don't ever shut up. He did this in front of a family member too. Other times the behaviour was less explicit but still very obvious to me.

He would almost always forget about social functions I would ask him to attend with me and would tell me that it was my fault as I know he has a bad memory and should remind him on the day itself. This would follow a week of discussing the event and he wouldn't forget about events that he had arranged himself that didn't include me.

He would criticise the way I dress and would compare me to other women. He later admitted that this was wrong but he continued to constantly criticise me for other things like the way I carry money without a purse, losing my travel card, or other minute observations. He stopped doing most of this as I learned to point it out to him while he was doing it, but it still continued on a lesser scale and his most recent and persistent criticism was my apparently overly polite behaviour. Apparently I am not assertive in public places and am constantly apologising or moving out of the way in the street and other things along these lines. He found this frustrating and off putting, I think I just have manners.

He was inappropriately flirtatious with women at work and would dismiss this behaviour as common place banter amongst his work colleagues. it led to female colleagues thinking that they could approach him to spend one on one time with him because he presented himself in a way that made them feel he was potentially interested. To him it was just banter and apparently normal in his work environment. Just banter so apparently not wrong because he would never have done anything with these women. He would say that I am unreasonable for finding this upsetting and that I hold things like this over his head.

When over the years I had finally reached breaking point, on about three occasions I told him we were over and he had to move out. On one of these occasion he went to work the next day and had a sexual encounter with a female colleague who we both new was interested in him and who was clearly happy at this turn of events. They did not have sex but had other physical contact. He told me about it that same evening as he felt conflicted and upset over what he had done. He said that he had needed some forms of validation and to feel wanted. It took a long time but we moved on and reconciled and things were somewhat better.

Recently and after the other issues, he had a male work colleague sending him nude pictures of a girl he was sleeping with and he showed them to me because he thought it was banter. I was unimpressed considering his history at work and it became an explosive topic in our home. To him it had just been banter between friends. Until now he feels I overreacted and it was just banter.

Another issue to do with him not supporting me came up two months ago. This was hot on the heels of the nude pictures situation and I asked him to leave and told him we were done. we were apart for a week and he pleaded to come home. I heard him out and told him I wanted to stay separated but maybe have counselling and see each other once a week while we sorted things out. He was adamant that he loves me and wanted to be with me. He didn't want us seeing other people. a week later I found out that 24 hours after he left our home and we had finished he had once again propositioned a woman at work and this time out rightly for sex. He had also done the same with the previous woman he had had an encounter with from work and they had discussed the fact that she wanted a relationship with him but he only wanted something casual. They had phone sex. He told me this happened because he was hurt and rejected and didn't want to feel miserable and alone at home mourning our relationship. To him I have no right to feel upset about this even if it was 24 hours after we split because he was single and could do what he wanted.

thoughts? He has emotional issues because of his family and their toxic nature but I don't now how to categorise them.

[KetchupIsNearlyAVegetable]

"He was cruel to me for many years, he was unfaithful more than once, he showed me naked photos of his friend's mistress."

it would be helpful to me mentally to be able to explain things clearly so that they don't find ways to argue around my points to maybe attempt to pass the blame onto me.

His family will probably pass the blame onto you no matter what you say. That happens in almost all divorces irrespective of culture. You just have to accept it instead of fighting it.

They can only argue around your points if you give them arguable material and then engage in their arguments. "He was unfaithful." How exactly could that be argued against? "He was cruel" Again how would that be argued?

Accept in your own mind that your families may never understand and might think you are the bad guy. So what?

[Quitelikely]

Tell your family he committed adultery.

I think you need counselling to establish what you are truly asking here.

[goddessofsmallthings]

Your family have an opportunity to "stick it to" your MIL?

May I suggest 'Any disgrace is yours and you should feel ashamed that you presented your worthless inbred son as a suitable match for our daughter' - followed by walking out en masse or throwing her out on her ear inviting her to leave their home.

[mummymummypony]

Thanks all! I'm out at the moment but will come back and explain more ASAP. Appreciate the help!

[saltnpepa]

He's a pain in the arse and always will be, the list went from unpleasant into abusive and I would have left too.

[scallopsrgreat]

This stuff about having to explain your reasons to the family seems like another excuse to keep women in relationships they don't want to be in and live with abusive men.

What are the penalties of opting out of this? Because after all your divorce is not dependent on this is it?

You do understand you will never make him or his mother understand or accept your reasons? There will be no "sticking it to them". Denial, lies, obfuscation, deflection, excuses, excuses, excuses will be all you get back.

[pocketsaviour]

Oh yes, great one about the nudie photos being porn.

I'm assuming that if OP doesn't go through this process, she'll not be granted a divorce within her religion, which would prevent her from ever remarrying in her faith and possibly exclude her from worship.

[pocketsaviour]

how would you reply to the idea that his propositioning those women 24 hours after our separation was OK because he was officially single

You point out that he told you that he wanted to work things out and that you shouldn't see other people. Making him a massive, massive hypocrite.

Also, don't make that infidelity the focus of your "list of complaints". Stick it in at the bottom as an afterthought. Because actually I think the verbal abuse is a lot more damaging. I would mainly focus on that.

Is there anyone in your extended family or friends who has gone through this process before, who you could ask for specific advice? Or perhaps someone from your place of worship?

[Cabrinha]

Also, this family meeting stuff suggests a traditional and conservative culture to me.

The photos of another woman? The "banter" ones I mean. Just stick with that. "He showed me porongraphy". Broken record, over and over again - tell his mum, in front of everyone else, that he forced you to look at porongraphy.

[Cabrinha]

In fact, if your XMIL mentions he was single, your mother should give her a derisory look at say "mmmmm, for 24 hours "

You're right - all the sane people agree with you!

[pompodd]

Crikey, you poor thing having to go through all of this bullshit. Bad enough having had such a knobhead as your ex, but worse still to feel that you somehow have to justify yourself after the event.

Have to say I don't really understand why you have to go through all this. Is there some legal basis for it which means you need to do it in order to be divorced?

[Cabrinha]

Well that's an easy one.

"Clearly my daughter and your son would have to overcome a lot of issues to make their marriage work. Only two committed people would succeed. Committed people do not run off to be physical with another woman and then rub the other's nose in it - within 24 hours".

Or the short version:

"Your boy be an arsehole. Guess he learned it from you, bitchmother? I want better for my daughter, so fuck off".

OP, I so very much want to be your mum now! I would high five you, and give his mum and icy glare, then go celebrate that the customary farce was done.

Look, you've just shown that this is a bloody point scoring freak show for his mother.

If you want me to be a less inflammatory mother, I will say:

"We have given you examples. She will not stay married. I think we shouldn't discuss more, because it will cause bad feeling and I think we would all rather keep this as civil as possible".

[mummymummypony]

Thanks everyone. I do appreciate the tough love too.

could I get some help on this particular point... how would you reply to the idea that his propositioning those women 24 hours after our separation was OK because he was officially single. I have a huge problem with this as does any sane person imo, but how do you reply to that? The thing is that his family members who have been handling the situation so far are very supportive of me and understand my reasons. but, his mother is a real bitch sadly and will say and do anything to deny he has a problem or will try to make this my fault. I don't care what she thinks generally but my family actually have a chance to stick it to her during this mediation and I'm wondering how to counter that particular argument.

[GoatsDoRoam]

How many reasons do you need? Do you really need proof of the emotional damage caused to you? That could leave you feeling quite vulnerable and wrong-footed. From your OP, you could whittle it down to:

• He belittled me constantly
  
• He was unfaithful
  

and anyone can understand how emotionally damaging those behaviours are.

[Cabrinha]

Tbh, I'd probably just sit back and say that it was a deal breaker that he was intimate with another woman.

[CheersMedea]

It just needs to be explained clearly and to a larger group this time so more formally

Just say "I was subjected to sustained psychological emotional abuse over a long period of time. It included belittling me, undermining me, repeated direct and unwarranted criticism and comparing me adversely to other women, silent treatment, ignoring my reasonable requests and encouraging sexual interaction with other women and then telling me about it."

[Cabrinha]

You have had TWO meetings already and now you're expected to talk to an even wider family group?
I think you've done your bit for customs and culture, you poor thing.

Just keep it simple. I get from your explanation that it comes from a place of trying to help a couple. But not multiple meetings with increasing numbers of relatives! Why can't you just tell them what you said in meeting one? Or two
Really feel for you.

[GoatsDoRoam]

x-post

[GoatsDoRoam]

Here's one possible script:

"I have been very unhappy for a very long time.
I did not feel respected in this marriage. For example, stbxh has done x, y, and z. I feel I have forgiven him enough times, and I am now done. I have decided that I no longer want to be in this marriage."

And if they say some version of: "Oh, go on, give him a second chance, see his remorse, think of the shame to you and to us, etc."

You can reply: "I understand that this is shocking and upsetting to you: it is indeed a significant decision. If this is how you feel, imagine how badly I must feel to have reached this point. Like you, I too hoped things could improve, and so I stayed and tried harder. However, the situation did not improve, and stbxh has now exhausted his supply of second chances. There will be no more second chances: I am done. I have decided that I no longer want to be in this marriage."

and repeat that last sentence if necessary.

This is not about finding adequate justifications, OP. It is about being true to your own self and your own decisions. You can choose to end a marriage because you know it no longer suits you. This is your life.

[Cabrinha]

I don't agree with justifying it to family members.
I think it's your right.
And if YOU want to explain it to his elders, fine, do it yourself.
That said, the only person who has any right to an explanation is your ex. And he knows why. So he can tell his family himself.

Tbh, it may be common in your culture but I think it's wrong and it would piss me right off to be infantilised that as a grown woman my reasons had to be relayed through my parents!

But, either you're happy with it - or choose not to fight it.

Either way, any kind of official description isn't going to help. Like I said before - labels only help when everyone speaks the same language.

I would write out 5 of the shittiest things he has done, but keep it to a short sentence. Hand that to whoever is doing the talking an say he was unkind to you, and here are examples.

Enter no further discussion.

And when you write them down, don't include his pathetic lying justification.

When he was physical with another woman, and told you, it is not because he was confessing and confused. It's because he wanted to hurt you and put you in your place.

So just put:

1. He was physical with another woman.
   

No further discussion.

You don't need this crap on top of dealing with him!

[CheersMedea]

a lot of it is just rejecting behaviour and verbal abuse - belittling, harsh comparisons, sexual interactions with other women.

[worldgonecrazy]

pocketsaviour nailed it - just use the first paragraph from her post. That's all you need. You don't need to go into deep explanations of his behaviour to him or to your family. It is enough that he made you feel like shit.

[mummymummypony]

They aren't going to do that. We have had a couple of sit down meetings already. It just needs to be explained clearly and to a larger group this time so more formally. It's not a matter of being forced to stay in the relationship, it's just so that I can be clear in my reasoning.

[mummymummypony]

I am married within my culture. Like many cultures, mine does no accept bigamy either. part of the divorce proceedings involves explaining why I want a divorce. The reason for this is to try and help couples who are struggling to work through their problems with family support before finally calling it a day. It isn't forced but is more an act of good intentions. For me though, I have made my mind up. However, for my family, it is important to go through the customary rights. So I need some help on how to clearly explain his behaviour in order to relay that to them for whatever they need to do with that information. I know he is emotionally abusive, it's just hard to explain how to others without getting into a long and drawn out discussion over examples etc...

[AnyRailway]

My family members thought outright physical violence in front of the children on more than one occasion was not a good enough reason to leave my marriage. My stepdad felt I should give my husband another chance, was angry that I had called the police, and is still not really speaking to me.

Do what you know to be right and try not to worry about what your family think. You have perfectly good reasons, and you don't need to justify them to anybody. I know this sounds harsh, but you can do it. You have been so strong already.