Wohms - do you ever doubt yourself?

[susannahmoodie]

I have 2 small dcs and I work ft as a teacher. I enjoy my job and am ambitious. My dh is part time and flexible and extremely hands on. We have excellent childcare. My weekends and early evenings are sacrosanct time with my dcs, I play with them for 2/3 hours a day after work, sometimes co sleep if they need to, put them to bed and read stories every night and I do feel like I'm doing ok in terms of work life balance, and I get annoyed at the sexism I sometimes face when people imply I shouldn't be ft, or that it's weird that dh does more childcare than I do.

Anyway, we visited bil and sil at the weekend. Sil is a sahm with 2 small dcs and a fog and a cat and chickens in a v rural rambling home. And even though I shudder whm I think back to the days when I washing slowly insane on maternity with 2 dcs, I always come away from there feeling like maybe I'm getting it wrong and she's getting it right, as it all just seems so idyllic and relaxed, unlike the pace of our home life which is.a bit more frenetic (although we do enjoy the school hols!)

A sort of complicating factor in this, is, I'm ashamed to say, a degree of bitterness. Pil are extremely wealthy. They helped us with a deposit or buy a home which we are obviously grateful for, but when it came to bil and sil they were not in a position to get a mortgage so pil bought them a house outright. This is a big factor in sil not having to work and I do. But I also don't feel I could cope with feeling any more beholden to pil than I already do and I can't really understand how sil can sah knowing someone else is funding it. But sometimes when work gets too much I wonder why I don't just do what she does.

I basically need someone to tell me how to stop doubting myself and how to let go of these feelings of bitterness.

[mamadoc]

In answer to the OP- nah not really

The fact is that I really love my job. It's challenging, it's exciting, it's worthwhile (just like teaching I should imagine)
I have never seriously considered giving it up. I'd be a bit lost. It's a big part of who I am. Maybe some people think that's sad but it's true.

Also I know that I would suck at SAH. I am disorganised (at work I have a secretary to mitigate that!) crap at budgeting, don't much enjoy baking or gardening or arts and crafts. No real interest in home decor. I quite like cleaning but I hate tidying. If I took all that on it wouldn't be playing to my strengths.

I like hanging out with my kids but I feel I get plenty of time for that after school and at weekends and because we have more money with me working we don't worry so much about a trip to a café or a day out. I honestly don't feel they've missed out. They had a lovely childminder who loves them very much (still in touch) and provided far more activities and opportunities than I would have done and then went to nursery at 3 where they've enjoyed the social opportunities and learnt a lot.

Don't get me wrong if it's your choice and that is what you enjoy and you are good at (and it's a choice your partner supports too of course) then do it. I just wish it was on the basis of choice and aptitude not sex discrimination.

Our lives would be easier if there was a SAHP keeping the home fires burning but neither me nor DH want to do it and so we don't. I resent that his mother, school run parents and society in general feel I have less right to my choice on that than he does especially since I am the higher earner. I have often thought that if our genders were reversed he would be staying at home by now as it has often made little economic sense for him to work but I support his choice to do so as he is fulfilled by his work as I am mine.

I am hoping that shared maternity/ paternity leave will get more common and acceptable and then everyone will have equal choices.

[louiseaaa]

Just had to butt in on this convo ... I'm a long time lurker on mumsnet but rarely rarely post .. But I can categorically say just listen to your inner compass, Everyone's situation is different as far as WAHM/SAHM/ WM is concerned. And if we are honest it changes from year to year anyway. Being flexible is key, because it all changes from nursery, to reception, to primary to secondary. My two are in secondary now but I went from a SAHM to a WAHM to a second career in education (not teaching, in any sense ((I take my hat off to you guys)) but not poorly paid either)

And honestly I hated being at home. I'm much better at work. But that's just me. YMMV. If your kids are mostly ok and you are I think that that's a good job done. We're not a kellogg's advert after all :D

[BrowersBlues]

Hand on heart, I never doubted working when I had my DC. There were some truly horrendous times, sick children, messy house, trying to play catch up but I wouldn't swap the choice I made for anything. In reality it was hardly a choice because their father was a waster so I had no option really.

When I read posts about SAHMs who have been shafted by their husbands I just see what a disadvantageous situation it can be to be a SAHM. In an ideal world there would be laws against being treated so poorly for rearing your children. My SIL has been unceremoniously dumped after 25 years of marriage. She had a great job but went part-time to rear the children. While her STBXH progressed through the ranks she was not afforded the same opportunity. She is now early 50's, he has met someone sparkling and new and he is making all the financial decisions - it makes me sick!!! She earns about 1/3 of what he earns. In reality she faces a pretty tight future financially.

One thing that makes me even more sick is that I have a daughter doing her A Levels and is considering some amazing University choices. Fast forward 10/15 years when she wants to start a family she will have a choice to give up her job, go part-time or work full-time which is not easy. The sooner this shit changes the better. Where I work the senior management is overwhelmingly male. I look at those twats and think if it wasn't for your wife you would never be in that position without a massive support team behind you. You would not have had children and you are less capable than most of the females in this massive organisation. DO NOT START ME AT THIS HOUR OF THE NIGHT!

[mamadoc]

No I must not start at this hour of the night either but...

This Saturday I was reading a letter published in my profession's national journal from some idiot bemoaning the rising numbers of women joining 'has nobody thought of the impact when they go on maternity leave

(In the same letter he also went on about immigration and political correctness so I'm guessing UKIP voter)

Really could not believe such outdated arguments are still worthy of publication.

He clearly has not heard of additional paternity leave or forthcoming rights to split leave equally between parents. I do feel that would make such a difference.

By the time your DD gets there maybe she will have more choices and there will be equal expectation of men and women doing childcare.

[BrowersBlues]

Mind boggling Mamadoc! I would love to think things will have changed by the time my DD gets there. I was at a conference recently and the first slide was a quote by Einstein saying '"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." This is how I feel about the whole set up of male dominated structures aka the modern workplace.

I think tear the whole thing down and start again.

[Wonc]

Today I do. DD is getting an award. A big one, and I can't go as I have a meeting with my boss at that exact time.
I only found out about the award yesterday - the fuckers.

But DD is 14. If I stayed home I would have serious mental health issues. I need to work. And although she is pissed at me today, I am reminding myself of the time she Googled me and told me she was proud of me.

So there you go. Today - yes. Overall - no.

Chickens and cupcakes are nice in theory. But in real life it's just sugar and chicken shit isn't it?

[BrowersBlues]

Wonc, congratulations to your DD. It is a pity you only got one day's notice. You made the right choice to work. For me staying at home would jeopardise my mental health and unfortunately you have to weigh it all up. You can let her know how proud of her you are.

To be brutally honest I could not stay at home with my children. I truly believe in quality time not quantity.

[susannahmoodie]

Thank you, lots of food for thought here. And while I dot we see either myself or my sil not being with our respective dhs, I suppose you just never know.

Thank you for recognising the sexism too. I actually teach a module on language and gender and I'm constantly harping on at my students about being aware of the dangers of gender stereotypes yet here I am being swayed by them myself.

[RipMacWinkle]

I agree entirely with Tiffany up thread. This question is recurring and I ask myself every time my child has a wobble. I thought I'd feel more secure when they were at school but, if anything, it's harder now.

[KwaziisEyepatch]

I work 3 days a week and don't doubt myself. Even when ds asks DH to work more so I can stay at home! How to explain to a 3 year old that mummy would work for free if she had to? I enjoy it, I'm not cut out to be at home all week. I'm a much nicer mother when Im not with small dc all the time, and I really make the most of the days I am at home with them.

[Hairtodaygonetomorrow]

Our lives would be easier if there was a SAHP keeping the home fires burning but neither me nor DH want to do it and so we don't This completely sums up our household, I know it would be easier if dinners were cooked when we got in, laundry done and it wasn't all so crazy but no-one wants to be the one to stay home, neither of us enjoy it at all and in my case I'm not terribly good at it (I don't spend more time cleaning or cooking at all even when I have the opportunity).

I can see why you are envious of your SIL as she has no financial responsibilities and so can choose to work or not to work as she pleases. I would like that too, but realistically that isn't possible, I don't even have a mortgage, no hope of getting deposit! You seem to have got the balance right for you and your family and that's quite precious, no need to be jealous of her I don't think (she may be jealous of your career, who knows?)

[Xenadog]

OP I've gone back to teaching and have a 0.7 timetable. I find it hard but chose to go back even though we could have afforded for me to be a SAHM. I'm torn but think it's better for me to be working but I am relieved not to be working full time. I wonder if going part time might be a solution for you? It doesn't have to be forever but might give you some extra time for whatever you need.

[susannahmoodie]

Xenadog I did consider it but the problem is I really want to progress and that's not going to happen I I'm pt sadly.

[mamadoc]

And there is nothing wrong in wanting to progress.
It would be applauded in a man.

Also I have found that being more senior has allowed me to have more flexibility. I am trusted to look after my own diary and if I want to come in a bit late and go to a school event I don't have to take annual leave I am able to just make up the hours at another time or from home.

I am more valuable to my organisation now and this makes them more willing to be flexible (as long as I don't take the piss clearly)

[MehsMum]

OP, I have done a mix of part time work, study and being a SAHM and I think there is a lot to be said for sticking with working. Part of me wishes now that I had, though part time since we would have gone nuts with two parents working full-time when the DC were younger, given the hours DH worked/commuted.

I do enjoy being at home but it's not for everybody. Don't feel guilty that it's not for you!

[susannahmoodie]

It is hard, like tonight I'm stressing as we are a bit behind with washing and I'm outsourcing ironing and cleaning too, but I agree with the sentiment that 'keeping the home fires burning' is dull and saps away my sanity.

I want to make progress but it would be so much easier if I had a 'wife' to take care of all that stuff.....

[BlackeyedSusan]

you have to do what is best for you and your family. being at home is great, for me, but it sounds like it is not for you. or not the best option for you. your dd has a part time wohp, just because it is not the female half of the partnership should not matter.

[ssd]

oohhh was going to answer but you used my all time least favourite mnism "outsourcing"

[writergirl]

Just adding my 2 pence worth.

I work 80% and run a business with my DP. I have 3 DC's. I struggled for a long time about working mother guilt etc, as they've been with childminders and in school early.

I must admit I did a lot of soul searching and discussions with SAHMs to finally feel comfortable with my decision.

I work with my DP so I have more freedom than most, but actually feel proud and happy to have got a balance. I love my work and I love my kids. I think it important for them to see a woman in many different roles, and also, crucially, happy.

My time is dedicated to them when I'm not at work, and if I feel I'm getting off balance, or work is getting too much, I set aside more time for them, or explain what's going on.

I also remember that life is created every day, not on one decision that is set in stone.

Discussions with SAHMs ( i live abroad) revealed they didn't like their job anyway, they didn't have a career or they would actually give their right arm to go back to work.

It is fine, healthy and good to question what you're doing, but also please be proud of your ability to juggle, and contribute on every level. And... to be an independent woman!

[teacher54321]

I was a terrible SAHM for the 13 months I was at home when ds was a baby. I was lonely and bored and anxious. I now work three days a week and tbh have zero guilt in any meaningful sense. As you can see from my username I'm also a teacher and just love it too much to give it up. Also we were awfully broke for the whole of our twenties and I'm not voluntarily going back to that for the sake of cupcake baking!!! The idea of being bankrolled by PIL doesn't fill me full of joy either, your SIL is extremely vulnerable. Vent by all means buy think hard about what would actually suit you. Sounds like you've got it pretty sorted!

[Twinklestein]

I'm not sure the stressful vs relaxed lifestyle is actually a W/SAH thing.

My sister lives in the country, doesn't work, her lifestyle is very like your SIL- 4 cars, 3 children, 2 dogs and a hamster. While I love her and her children dearly, visiting her is never relaxed, it's exhausting and stressful because she doesn't really have it all under control. The children are slightly feral at home (at school and with me they behave perfectly well), and there's always lot of shouting, tantrums, tears, chaos.

If you come to my house, my husband works very long hours, I'm working part time and training, we've got 2 kids, a cat and now a dead terrapin, but it's a much quieter, less stressful environment.

Of course, both partners are working FT make things more frenetic but it may be that SIL & family are inherently laid back anyway and it would be still the same if she went out to work.

Personally I would go completely round the twist in the country with nothing but children and chickens for company.

Is there any possibility of compromise? To go part time for a while and see how that feels?

[pinkpeony]

wohm here and never doubt myself.

went back to work ft when each dc was 5 months. Am now a divorced single mother, supporting them single-handedly as exh doesn't see them or contribute financially - so don't have an option not to be a wohm. Am so glad I never gave up ft work as I have progressed my career, which I really enjoy, and it gave me the independence to leave an awful exh and be able to support me and dcs alone. I work hard and have good childcare in place. And yes, life is totally frenetic most of the time but luckily we have lots of time at weekends and holidays to spend quality time together as a family.

tbh even if I had been in a happy marriage with an h who could support all of us, I still would have wanted to work - I'm not the kind of person who would enjoy running a house and family ft (far harder and less rewarding work at least in short-term than working outside the home) and I wouldn't be happy making myself dependent on a man and all the risk that entails. You never know what life might throw at you down the road.

having lived abroad and in other European countries extensively, I must say the UK is very sexist compared to other European countries in terms of putting pressure on women to stay at home after having children and not giving them the support (financial, practical and cultural) to return to work if they want to.

[getthefeckouttahere]

I have nothing to say about how you live your life, but i as a dad to two young children i would like to thank you and all the other teachers with small kids who don't give it up ad keep teaching our kids.

Your own experiences undoubtedly add positively to our classrooms and we all benefit from that. So i hope you are happy with your choice because i and others are glad that you made it.

[Notbythehaironmychinnychinchin]

I think it's not a case of she's doing it right and you're doing it wrong - you're both doing it differently, that's all.

Imagine her post on here: I love being a SAHM and it's really rewarding but when I see my SIL combining a career with being a mum I feel inferior. Plus she's able to support herself whereas I've relied financially on my parents which also makes me feel inferior.

She'd get a slew of responses - and rightly so - telling her she was doing the best for her family right now. Just like you're doing. We don't all do the same things but if we're all doing the best we can then we should stop judging ourselves so harshly.