Abusive parents can't cope with adult childrens feelings?

[appletarts]

Does anyone else notice that dysfunctional/abusive parents get very angry when their children (adult) talk about how they feel. I have been talking to my mum about how I feel about the past and less emotive subjects in a totally non-blaming, calm and rational manner and it's sent her over the edge, she went absolutely hysterical nuts. Is this an attempt to silence me or does anyone have any reflections on this? Is it true for anyone else and why does it trigger such a massive response? We were never allowed to express our feelings as children but never knew what would happen if I did because I just knew I shouldn't. As an adult I am silenced constantly by her.

[Meerka]

It depends on the nature of the abusive mother/father.

Some of them react very badly to the idea that their captive audience, ie their children, are being 'taken away' by someone else. They like to know that they come first, at all times. Any threat to that is to be disliked hated.

Also parents like this tend to have a problem with anyone else at all coming into the situation that they (often) completely control anyway. Children getting bfs/gfs/ partners is a sign of independence that is absolutely not acceptable to them.

If the partner then encourages the grown-up child to stand up for herself, it'll be even worse.

A lot of the idea of someone having a 'hold' on the adult child is pretty much becuase they themselves have some sort of hold and so they automatically assume anyone else will be trying to get the same.

I've noticed that people like this tend to have very narrow views. They assume that everyone else is like them; same nature and same motivations. Not always, but often. Mind you, lots and lots of people who aren't abusive also find it hard to understand that people differ wildly =)

[MajesticWhine]

Yes, makes a lot of sense Meerka.

[MrRected]

Loggie - your advice was quite confronting when I first read it. The concept that my parents did their best affronts me on a fundamental level. They were and are totally shit. BUT, your post has made me realise that they WERE doing their best. To this day they can't see what they were doing was terrible. This is where the second element about perspective comes into play.

I have been NC for 2 years this time and before that for 3 years. My mother is an alcoholic with suicidal tendencies and possible undiagnosed bipolar. My dad totally enables her. He is an old school narcissist, completely incapable of talking to me without visibly thinking about his next statement instead of listening to me. There was a lot of physical abuse and favouritism in my childhood home, sprinkled with drunken rages/beatings, suicide attempts. Fear and inconsistency.

I have been wavering about nc, what if they get sick, they are getting old etc. I start to forget why we don't talk.

[AdoraBell]

Appletarts it's a way of not being responsable for her own behaviour.
She's saying that you are angry because of him, not because of anything she did, because she didn't do anything that would make anyone angry, because she is a good person and parent.

Going back To parents doing the best they can. My mother did the best she could. That was not the best that she could have done. My father also did the best he could, but not the best that could be done. Both, in their way, where tóxic and it took me 3 years of therapy a long time after his death and NC with her To unravell the pile of shit that is my childhood.

She got married because of social pressures, he got married because of love. She didn't love him, he bécame depressed and then violent. She had an affair. They stayed married because of social pressures and the violence increased. Her Drs advised her To have an abortion when she was carrying me. She decided not To. The violence continúed. She bécame moré depressed and withdrawn.the violence continúed.

His best was To not deal with anything and then explode violently. Her best was To shut down while he was beating the shit out of her and the DCs.

Not much good, but they both did the best they could in their own situación. So that's okay then.

BTW, I know about the Drs advizing her To terminate her pregancy, that she was told not To bring yet another child into the shit storm and refused To head the advice, because the cunt told me, and no, she wasn't the only parent who damaged me. Both of them were víctimas and they creatived another round of víctimas/abusers, at léast one of home has carried on the family tradición.

[livingzuid]

loggg1e It's very insensitive to say that parents are always just trying their best and that all it is is just a child's point of view. That's an alarmingly simplistic and inappropriate viewpoint for people who have suffered what is child abuse, and then expecting them to brush off/rationalise the trauma explained by 'well they were trying their best so it's OK really'. It is not OK. The impacts of these behaviours last well into adult life and forever unless treated. Not everyone is fortunate enough to talk things through with a psychologist or counsellor.

appletart my mum is not an alcoholic or anything and the opposite to your mum in that she loves all my exes and I am the one permanently doing something wrong. She is a bit wary of DH who is a different and wonderful breed to the rest of them - basically does not fall for what he calls her 'psychological warfare'. I used to cringe at how much she would flirt with my exes, particularly XH. She has an issue with women though which I have known about for some years and I am, according to my psychologist, somewhere in the middle of that.

My mother falls into the camp of not being able to acknowledge her guilt. She knew I was being abused as a child and did nothing to stop it - in fact even tried to rationalise the abuser's behaviour at which point I walked out. So combine that with just not liking women very much, I spent my years growing up being told I was the one with the problem. It's taking therapy to work out that wasn't the case. I now visit occasionally and talk on the phone occasionally but I keep arms length as every conversation is stressful. I went nc for many months which was actually liberating. On the surface everything is normal but when it goes deeper problems arise.

With your mum and partners it is something to do with control. Actually I think 100%. You have an outside voice now and that interferes with her control over you. Any DH worth their salt would stick up for you and protect you over her vitriol and she doesn't know how to handle that I guess. Some people just need whipping posts and what would she do if you were removed from that role by someone who actually has your best interests at heart?

Sorry did not mean to hijack thread :) just about to become a mum for the first time and your experiences have resonated so thank you for posting. I am hoping you and meerka who always makes wise comments, are correct and that I won't be as crap a mum! I know my mum was abused by my grandmother and has an idiolistic/unrealistic view of her father and that then did transfer onto her own parenting. adoraBell has it right saying that yes they did the best they could but it wasn't the best they could have done.

[appletarts]

livingzuid, I think you have a good point there, my DH told her he didn't know how she slept at night and he was the first partner of any of the siblings to ever pass comment, everyone else sat there. My DH has made it clear he will go along with what I want but has told her he will step in as soon as he needs to protect his children, my mum was very angry about that statement!! I go between no contact and having a relationship with her because I am sad that the problems are still there after all these years, that she will die with all this crap still going on and there's nothing I can do about it because it is all her creation and I feel sorry for my kids with no grandparents. My daughter said she didn't want granny coming back and I felt sorry for my mother, now that is f**ked up of me! Anyway I listened to my daughter, apologised and said granny is a bit unwell and that I would never let her near us again behaving like that but thing is I can't promise what her behavior will be in reality and know she is still capable of violence even though she's 70! So I have to go no contact now don't I?

[livingzuid]

If there is the potential for violence then I'd say unfortunately yes, especially if you little ones could be exposed or heaven forbid on the receiving end :( NC is very hard and I understand totally the feelings of guilt and duty that remain but the children's safety has to come first. Particularly if she has a drink problem - I guess that exacerbates it? She has to help herself and if you are NC then that is her problem. From what you have said though I doubt she will ever own responsibility for her actions.

And will DH also put his foot down do you think over this? He sounds great :)

[livingzuid]

It's not the grandmother behaviour you would choose for your children is it? I think by the sounds of things they would rather not have that woman around! Trust in what your dd is saying and it sounds like you handled it really well :)

[Logg1e]

livingzuid you are telling me that what I am saying is inappropriate and offensive to people who were abused as children, but that's exactly what you and the OP are doing to me. You're telling me that the ideas which give me (and others) perspective and comfort are inappropriate.

From what you say you have misunderstood my point. For example, I never said it was acceptable for parents to be shit parents. But even so, none of us have a monopoly on misery. You can't rubbish what helps some of us just because it doesn't help you.

[sashh]

if anyone had just turned up they would have thought I'd just done the most awful thing to her.

To her you have, you have done the worst thing, you have confronted her.

Logg1e

Example from my past.

2 children, pre puberty, on holiday they have to share a room with a double bed.

One gets the bed and the duvet, the other has to sleep on the floor with a single sheet if they try to get into the bed they are hit or kicked. The one sleeping on the floor is punished in the morning for not sleeping in the bed.

How is that anyone doing their best?

Some parents tried and fell short, it sounds like your parents fall in to that category, but many are mean, vindictive and down right cruel.

[Logg1e]

sashh I'm not saying there's only one solution. However. In your case I would say that for whatever reason it was the parents who behaved like that. For whatever reason they failed to listen to explanations or saw blame where it didn't lie. My perspective teaches me that it wasn't the child's fault. The blame did not lie with her.

[MrRected]

I got your point Logg1e ... See my post upthread.

[Logg1e]

Oh, strange, I remember typing a reply to MrRected Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore you!

[livingzuid]

Not wishing to derail this thead for OP who is clearly having a struggle and should be about her. But in response to you Logg1e let's look at what you said:

I think that there are two helpful thoughts. Firstly, each parent is the best parent they, personally, can be.

I am not the only one to have said that's not necessarily correct. I put up with 16 years of being told I was bad and evil.

In no way are you correct when you say each parent is always going to be the best parent they personally can be. Some are too blind to the truths around them that they shy away from the fact that they could, and should have done more. I put my mother leaving me in the hands of a carer and knowing I was sexually abused. Are you seriously saying to me that she was doing her best? No, she was blinded because she didn't want to believe it was going on. She knew what she could have done but it was easier for her to leave me rather than make the effort to find new help.

Again I think adoraBelle has it correct in saying that her mother did ''the best she could, but it wasn't the best she could have done". That's a far more accurate statement which I do relate to, am currently exploring in therapy, and may be what you mean.

Secondly, it's possible for you both to have different memories of the time, and for there to be two truths.

I can assure you there was no mistaking in my mind being abused by my main carer when I was three years old and it being systematic for three years until we moved. I also remember telling my mother and being slapped for telling lies. That's not a truth that there will ever be a different interpretation of.

So yes, I do find your comments inappropriate, insensitive and not helpful. It is too generalised for to state that all scenarios fit into the above two categories which is how it comes across. I am also not the only person to have said so. If that is not what you mean then please clarify further.

Apple hope you are having a better afternoon and apologies once again for the derail. I will only post on your own situation from now on (just wanted to use my own examples to respond but don't expect a response if that makes sense!) but I really do emphasise and hope you are ok.

[MrRected]

Living. - my initial reaction was the same as yours. I took some time to think about it and saw what Logg1e is trying to say.

She was trying to say that you can't control what they did or their reaction to being confronted with their actions being rehashed years later. They were being the best they could be - even if that best was sub humanly shite. They see things very differently and perceive the reality differently - so any expectation that apologies/remorse/understanding might be forthcoming are totally unrealistic.

It's simple and confronting but if you think about it with the slightest element of dispassion it makes sense.

[livingzuid]

MrReacted I do see what you are both saying but I still don't agree with it and neither would my psychologist. But anyway not my thread :) so won't comment on that further.

Heaven knows how a parent can countenance abusing their own child as in apple's scenario and many others of course. If a third party abuser won't sometimes be acknowledged as real by a parent then I suppose there's no hope in your own abusive parent ever recognising they are abusers and I think she should definitely go NC. People like her M don't ever seem that interested in change, seeking professional help or developing self-reflective behaviour to try and improve.

[Hissy]

I think it's helpful to think this 'best parent they could be' business.

To think anything else, to think that they did it on purpose means that, somehow, we deserved it, we'd done something that justified their 'inhumane shite'

We didn't. We didn't deserve any of it.

For their own reasons/fault, they chose to do this to us.

Getting to the 'why' is probably impossible. We just have to accept the truth, that it wasn't acceptable, but that it says nothing about us as people/children.

I'm on this particular roundabout, I logically understand what happened to me, not the 'why' because it wasn't me that 'did' anything. I cycle from hurt to rage, to sadness and then tranquillity.

I wanna get off the roundabout, but can't just yet.

Anyone know the way out? :)

[Logg1e]

Using her own phrase, let's look at what Living said,

"In no way are you correct when you say each parent is always going to be the best parent they personally can be. Some are too blind to the truths around them that they shy away from the fact that they could, and should have done more."

If they were blind to to the fact that they could have done more, how could they? By your definition she was "blind" to alternatives or seeking help.

I work with parents who neglected their children due to their drug addictions. They put the purchase of drugs before the health and safety of their children. They prostituted themselves, with the children in the house, to earn money for drugs. And worse.
Given poverty and drug addiction the best they could do as a parent was tiny. Not enough. But that's all they could do.

"the best she could, but it wasn't the best she could have done" This is pretty much what I'm saying. A parent does the best they could do. It might not be the best that the person next door could manage.

So yes, I do find your comments inappropriate, insensitive and not helpful. It is too generalised for to state that all scenarios fit into the above two categories which is how it comes across. I am also not the only person to have said so. If that is not what you mean then please clarify further

I haven't said anyone else's coping strategies are wrong. I haven't said what works for me will work for you. I certainly haven't called them inappropriate, insensitive or bullshit. So, I question why some of you find it ok to tell others that what we find comforting and informative, bullshit.

[MrRected]

No idea Hissy. Will watch with interest.

[Logg1e]

MrRected, They see things very differently and perceive the reality differently - so any expectation that apologies/remorse/understanding might be forthcoming are totally unrealistic. and in fact, everything else you've said.

And Hissy, yes, yes, yes to everything you say at 13:21.

[Fannydabbydozey]

The first line of what logg1e said was elamost exactly what my abusive stepfather said to me to excuse his hideous treatment of me during my childhood and adolescence. His very own excuse... Those words.

Those are not words which make me feel comforted but rather those which make me angry and tearful and feel sick for all those years of misery.

For the second part, I don't have a version of what happened I have the truth. He knows what he did. He just doesn't chose to believe he was a cunt for doing it. That's not a different take on events - its not admitting he was a violent bastard who took great pleasure in hurting me both physically and mentally.

I'm glad that you can take solace from thinking this way, but can you see why others are appalled?

OP I cannot talk to my dad about what happened. We had a huge fight a few years ago when I finally told my mum some of the violence that went on. He confronted me whilst I was on holiday with them last year and this was when he claimed he had done the best he could under the circumstances, that he'd been the best dad he could be and it was difficult for him etc etc it was excruciating for me and I will not be holidaying with them again. Since our fight I have maintained a very cool relationship because I love my mum and I can't have one parent without the other. But they know that if he touches a hair on my children's heads he will never have contact again. Ever. I barely engage with him. Even if I'm in the same house I pretend he doesn't exist because he doesn't deserve any attention from me. It's better for the family this way but I'd actually prefer to have no contact with him at all. I know that when he dies I will feel free.

[livingzuid]

I did not use the word bullshit but I can see why others did. And I feel you have been inappropriate - if people feel that way then yes you have. I've already said this is not my thread and I'm not commenting on my situation further as I am sure it is not helpful to the OP and it certainly isn't to me.

And why do you seem to not understand that what YOU may find comforting is upsetting to others - particularly your second sentence which you haven't explained further? It works both ways.

So why don't we leave this circular argument there instead of trying to justify or disprove your claims and get back to something that may be useful to the OP - who has already said she does not find those two statements of yours helpful?

[livingzuid]

Fanny you worded things much better than me :)

[Logg1e]

Fanny, For the second part, I don't have a version of what happened I have the truth.

Living, your second sentence which you haven't explained further

So, my second sentence is saying you don't have to fight for a mutually agreed truth. The fact that you know it's the truth, Fanny, is enough for it to be true. You don't need to get him to agree with you. Similarly, and more generally, if your parent states something as fact, you don't have to think you're going crazy because you have a different memory.

[MrRected]

Logg1e simple statement is a reflection on victimisation - not intended literally.

As a child of abusive, alcoholic, violent parents, who left me alone to fend off sexual abuse by one of their friends' teenage children - whilst off getting pissed and swinging. I totally get your outrage - if you could try to look at the statement as a point of view/manner of being to endure that blame sits squarely at the feet of the abusers instead of a literal view of what she says - it does make sense.

So much sense, I almost feel a sense of epiphany. After years of harrowing self loathing, I really get it.