Dh is not 'engaged' with our life - how to live like this?

[fattyfattybumbum]

I'm at a bit of a loss at what to do next in my relationship. My dh and I have been married for 11 years, together for just over 13 in total. We have three children under 6. It's quite difficult to describe what I'm finding annoying, but I'll try & explain it.

He is, can be, a loving, caring husband, although most of this side of him is shown to our kids these days, which I know is a bit inevitable when they are so small & demanding. Our sex life is virtually non existent, probably 2-3 times a year, which I find increasingly upsetting & frustrating.

For at least 3, maybe a lot more years he has gradually become more and more detached from me, our life.... It's both emotionally and practically. I feel like I do all of the work in the relationship and our lives, all of the 'thinking'. I do probably 80% of the housework, budgeting, planning holidays, sorting out school stuff etc etc. He will do things I ask him, but not consistently, and will forget to do basic stuff like put kids clothes in the washing basket. He does generally do the kids bath / bed routine & will often give them breakfast. I asked him everyday for about 2 weeks to give the kids a drink with their breakfast, and everyday he just said "oh, I forgot"...

We both have quite demanding jobs, although I work 3 days a week and he is part time, so I accept that I take a larger share of the housework.

To put it bluntly, it feels like he just passively participates in our life. It would never occur to him that there are things that need doing outside of the day to day routine, for example making sure the kids have shoes that fit, or organising a birthday party. Everything we do I have thought of, every holiday, every day activity, everything that happens for Christmas etc.

I have talked to him lots of times about this, I've been upset, angry, I've decided to try & not say anything & just support him & see if he becomes more engaged. I've been so cross with him today because I've been trying to get organised with decorating one of the children's bedrooms (we bought a falling down wreck because he promised he would be engaged with working on it, but has done virtually nothing in the 4 years we've had it), and he decided he didn't like the colour I had chosen, despite the fact that he's not been involved with planning it, nor will he do any of the work in the task.

Don't get me wrong, he can be an amazing person, but I feel like I am on my own in a relationship.

Does anyone know what I mean? What can I do to try & make things better?

[DoesBuggerAll]

Yogii - Good advice.

It's a bit like when someone leaves/retires/gets made redundant at work. You know the sort, the lynchpin of the office, the one who from the sound of it would cause the office to collapse if they left, the one who does umpteen jobs single-handedly (and simultaneously). What actually happens when they leave? Life goes on. Things still get done; the critical tasks get given to somebody else; the less important get left. Often most of them never get done again and nobody notices since most of it was make-work. Other tasks can now be done more efficiently because there isn't someone flapping around busying everybody about.
Whatever the faults of the DH (and I'm sure he has many) the OP has control issues. She sounds very much like a 'It's my way or the highway' type. Communication isn't you telling him what to do and him doing it.
For goodness sake, recognise that neither you nor your partner are superhumans, accept (and I mean accept) that you have different opinions on things and take time from all the chivvying to actually enjoy life.
Have you tried Mindfullness? Has your DH?

[WhoKnowsWhereTheTimeGoes]

Mine is like it too, but it has got better with time. Strategies that have helped have been the DCs getting older and telling him what a bad example he is setting them (dirty clothes on the floor, clean clothes not put away etc). I do not do any of the gift buying for his family (I did do some of it in the past). Last time he wanted to replace his car, I steered him in the direction of the one I thought we needed and left him to buy it and get rid of his, I think he was quite surprised at all the paperwork etc. I no longer nag him to do his tax return, if it's late, it's late.

I think the shame in front of the DCs has probably been the most telling part, there have been a few instances of me explaining why we don't leave our dirty clothes on the floor for someone else to pick up in his hearing and it has spurred him on. I have also accepted that to some extent there are differences between us, I am much more pro-active (and cautious) than he is, but he does step up well in a crisis while I panic. Also, about 15 months ago I had an operation which meant I could do no housework/childcare for a few weeks, he took on more then and has kept up with things a bit better since.

[TheCrumpetQueen]

Funny how common this is.

And at Super Dad and Mega Partner. That's happening to me now too. But it always returns to normal after the threat has died down.

[MrBusterIPresume]

OP, you have my sympathy. My H is like this too. And I have gradually come to realise that he is like this because he wants to be. He gets a much easier life by "not noticing" what needs to be done, or by doing things (repeatedly) in such a half-arsed way that it is less trouble to do them myself. The only way I can get him to do more is to make him responsible for tasks that only impact on him (e.g. his laundry) - but then I get the accusation that I don't care about him any more because I don't do anything for him .

To all the people who have suggested that the OP is a control freak who has only to back off to have her DH magically engage with family life, the only charitable explanation I can think of for your attitude is that you've never lived with someone like this. Well-meaning suggestions to "just leave him to get on with it" make my blood boil, because people like this don't want to pitch in, they want to be left alone to follow their own agenda without interference from annoying household tasks and family activities. Normal, decent human beings will step up when asked/required to, selfish ones will not. Are you really suggesting that the OP is responsible for her husband's lack of engagement as well as everything else?

The OP is not a control freak. When you are responsible (by default) for almost everything bar a few token chores, to have someone faffing about doing something badly (whether through ignorance or passive aggression) is incredibly irritating because you know that you will have to pick up the pieces when things aren't done to a minimum standard. So micro-managing or taking over the task yourself are less about criticising the other person than about saving yourself more work and stress in the long run.

[AskBasil]

Men do this because they feel entitled not to dirty their hands with the boring endless work of childcare and running a home.
The ones who do it don't love their wives enough to throw off the sexist assumption that the boring unpaid invisible work of running a home and childcare is women 's work. At a very deep subconscious level, they feel it's beneath them.

Women tell each other all sorts of comforting lies about how men just can 't see dirt, just can 't organise a home (even though they're perfectly capable of organising companies) in order to try and convince themselves that all men are like this and the one they are with is no worse than anyone else.

But they 're wrong. Men who truly love and respect the women they live with, don't treat them as unpaid skivvies

[Longtalljosie]

Yeah there was a bloke on Women's Hour last year insisting that men simply couldn't see dirt, and us laydeez just had to accept that was the way it was.

And yet I imagine if all male food hygiene inspectors were sacked overnight for this reason there'd be a bit of an uproar...

[lifestory]

rings bells with me that's for sure!after getting nowhere for years, I wrote a list of our respective jobs/responsibilities and contributions with now xh .
my list was three pages long, he had had just one "list" which was to feed his dog, though generally I did it too.
I kept the roof over 3 c heads, paid all the bills, total provider. you know what, he hated responsibility so much eventually left with someone the same, no responsibilities! he even told me "why should I use my brain when I can use yours"he was okay to be carried for decades, but eventually enough is enough. maybe he wanted a "mother" and not be a "father,husband"i even went "on strike" but it all just fell apart, I thought it might make him wake up, but hell, no, he carried on as usual. so, try it, strike, go away, down tools, before it's too late. good luck.

[Tonandfeather]

Such a good point about hygiene inspectors!! I agree so much with the PP too about the painful to read excuses that some women give men for not loving them enough and actually being sexist throwbacks to a different age.

Some writers here are saying how coincidental and funny peculiar that the men in their lives are like this too. It's no coincidence at all.

I'm more surprised there are women who, despite their husbands functioning well at work, think it's odd or amazing that they revert to teenagerdom when they put the key in the door.

You really don't know what that's about?

It's because they don't think what happens at home is anything much to do with them, or that they will be blamed if things fail to get done. That's because there is a woman there doing it and they see it as her job that if they can be arsed occasionally, they might "help" her with.

The ones who can't even be arsed to do that without being asked or told to, have completely checked out and don't care how exhausted she is or how much she is starting to hate them. They don't want sex with her so why bother?

[HowGoodIsThat]

All sounds very familiar! However, now that I am back at work full time, I have had to force a change. Things that have helped:

• Lists and sitting down regularly to review who does what.
• Routines - we now have a evening routine - tidy kitchen, fill dishwasher, hang up washing, set breadmaker, lay table for the morning. we do it together and then we both get to go and out chill out. Likewise in the mornings, its equal division of getting us and the kids up and out of the house.
• Meal planning and shopping is done on alternate weeks - his first few weeks in charge have been "interesting" but no-one has died.

Key things:

• I have made a deliberate decision not to assess or comment on the HOW he does things. It is enough that they get done. Yes, its not often done how I would do it, but that is more or less fine. Any anguish caused by it not being done My Way is in my head, so I deal with it.
• I try to work with the flow - i.e., focus him to the jobs that he is motivated to do. There is no point nagging him to do something he finds tedious - so I learn the skills instead. With DH, its very often getting started that is the issue, if I go and get the drill, he'll often pick it up from there. Fortunately he loves planning and booking holidays so that is all his!
• Older kids helps. They tell him if they are thirsty or cold - he has to live with miserable consequences of dragging them out for a walk inadequately dressed and without snacks. He is learning as a result.

Big stuff - shoes, dentists, doctors - I do all that for the kids. He doesn't do that sort of stuff for himself let alone them! I don't mind keeping the overview on the welfare - it helps me sleep at night!

Finally - look for the things he does do that you might not even spot. I realised that our bikes are spotless and beautifully maintained. I wouldn't bother myself, but it is him expressing his love and care for us in his way. And I never have to faff with pumps or change wheels or wash muddy bikes. So I cut him some slack on the things that I do that he doesn't.

[AskBasil]

You know this thing about men having different standards and not doing it the way their wives would do it (IE the hygienic, user-friendly way).

If they told their bosses they're not going to manage the project the way generations of directors and managers and HR people and company leaders have painstakingly worked out is the best way for their company, they're going to do it to a lower standard in a less efficient way, they'd be sacked.

Just sayin'.

[MollyWhuppie]

My husband is like this. He has his good points though too and before we had small children it didn't seem to matter. I guess there was less to do and more time available to do it.

I do it all because I don't want to live in a pig sty, or get bailiffs letters because direct debits haven't been set up, I want the children to have clothes and shoes that fit, and I don't want to eat ready meals and takeaways every night, and the list goes on and on!

The fact is if I didn't do it, no-one would. I'm married to a man who, when he lived alone, never cleaned his own bathroom. You would never think he was such a slob to look at him. He just didn't care and still doesn't. I don't know what the answer is. Certainly leaving them in charge every so often so they appreciate what you do at least helps a bit.

[BC27]

You make a very interesting point ton . It's the of lack of affection, intimacy, sex and care combined with the general laziness and selfish attitude that is the real killer and has probably sounded the death knell for me !

[AskBasil]

I just can't leave this topic alone. Doing housework is not rocket science. There isn't a "special" way women do it that's different from how men are programmed to do it. You either wipe a surface thoroughly or you don't. You either scrape leftover food off plates before putting them in the spaces helpfully grooved out in the dishwasher or you don't. You either vacuum the whole room including the bits which require you to move bits of furniture out of the way so that you can do that bit of the floor, or you don't. You either sort your laundry into different colours and textures or you ruin your clothes. It's not some enormously difficult task that people need special training for; it's helpful to be shown, obviously, but if you're not, you can work it out for yourself even if you are below average intelligence.

This pretence that it's all some big bizarre technical thing full of pitfalls and different methods - well yes, if you're Anthea Turner, but for most of us, housework is a very straightforward task which you either get on with or you don't. Those who don't think it's their responsibility (children, teenagers, entitled husbands) don't get it on with it and make a song and dance of it and do it badly each time to prove that it's not their job to the person whose job they think it is. Those who know it's their responsibility (sane rational people who are physically able to and don't assume it's someone else's problem) just get on with it and do it.

[Tonandfeather]

Yes they'd be sacked.

But the other reason they don't do jobs up to standard is because they know when people visit their home or see their children, it won't be THEM who'll come in for judgement and criticism.

It surprises me how many apparently intelligent women when talking about dirty homes or grubby children, look to the woman/mother to blame even if there is a fully able man in the house.

[AskBasil]

MollyW that's so sad.

One of the things you do for someone you love, is try and make the environment you share with them as comfortable and practical for both of you as possible.

Not doing so is a sign of contempt in my book.

I'd hate to live with someone who treated me contemptuously.

[MollyWhuppie]

askbasil I realise I've made him sound terrible! He is a generally good bloke who will do things when asked/nagged but it does cause issues regularly in our relationship because I do feel like the unpaid skivvy a lot of the time. He works extremely hard to provide for us as a family in a high pressured job though, and a lot of the stuff I do is because I want to. Would just be nice if there was a bit more balance sometimes.

[AskBasil]

The thing is, if I lived with someone who told me that s/he felt like an unpaid skivvy a lot of the time, I would examine my behaviour to find out what I was doing to make him/ her feel like that and I would adjust it to try and ensure that I wasn't making someone I loved feel like that.

I wouldn't want to make someone I love feel like that. I want to treat the people I love with respect and... well, love. Making them feel like a skivvy is not loving behaviour.

[maparole]

My ex was just like this and I must say that in retrospect I see it as a very large facet of his generally abusive personality. When I met him, he was living alone and one of the things I found very attractive about him was that he cooked and cleaned and generally managed his life pretty well. That soon changed once I moved in!

He didn't stop doing everything all at once, but eventually he was doing literally NOTHING to contribute to household or family. Whenever I tried to discuss the issue, he would just say I was moaning, or yell at me and go into a huff for days. It was made worse by the fact we lived in France and he never really bothered to learn French properly, so any admin or phone calls had to be down to me.

As the OP says, it's the thinking which is most exhausting; the constant juggling of 50 different things in your head, with no-one to catch the ball if you drop it. What's more, he was always reminding me about stuff which "we" needed to do and whenever anything did go slightly awry, he would be down on me like a ton of bricks for how useless I was.

Living with the resentment of this for several years really ground me down and turned me into a right sourpuss. I feel soooo much better now it is just me and I'm not consantly feeling aggrieved that my so-called "partner" has let me down once again and continues to add to my burden.

In short, I do think that the refusal to contribute AT ALL to life's daily tasks is a form of abuse, in that it communicates a total lack of care or respect for the one who is doing it all.

[Frozennortherner]

I know what you mean OP. i feel for you. It's hurtful. Am not sure there's a way back. I still hugely resent DH for precisely this. Stupid, stupid men. They're losing something enormously valuable (ie. us!) by acting this way. I wish they knew this.

[Tonandfeather]

I don't know how anyone can NOT know this and in the poster's case, she has told him so many times - so he knows alright.

But I expect another fault is just not taking women's complaints seriously and if they are still there and don't leave or end the relationship - and carry on doing all the donkey work and having crap sex lives - then maybe they have a point.

Maybe it's also because it gets drummed into women that they can't leave a relationship for problems that the world thinks women shouldn't be worried about - being a skivvy and having no sex life. So women trivialise those complaints and feel too embarrassed to elevate them to their proper status; the deal-breakers that they are.

[Wibblypiglikesbananas]

Does anyone else think that our parents' generation of women contribute to this in some way? Not all obviously, but I recently had a c-section and both DM and MIL came to stay whilst I was incapacitated.

DM was highly impressed at how much DH did. Well, of course he did! He had a month's paternity leave and a wife who could hardly move. Of course he had to step up! He didn't deserve a medal for cooking dinner and doing a bit of cleaning though...

MIL did some cleaning 'for me'. For me?! Cos her son doesn't live here, does he? But apparently all cleaning related activities are down to me. Hmmm. This is the woman who bought me oven cleaner for Xmas when I was heavily pregnant with DC1 and hence couldn't use it - again, no thought given to the fact that DH was an equal recipient of food cooked in our home and hence could have cleaned it too...

[alemci]

yes doesn't sound that different to my DH. he has improved over the years and was good with our dc.

his mum is lovely but did everything for him. she had no life of her own and now does everything with fil

[redmapleleaves]

OP, my ex was like this too. I tried and tried saying, we had endless marriage guidance, I'd think he'd got it, but no change. 6 months out of the relationship I am becoming aware how abusive he was in so many ways, and that he literally did nothing for the kids, the home, or my priorities, outside paid work. I have honestly found it far easier as a single mum to two kids, working full time, in a new area where I know no one, than it was coordinating and feeling resentful that I was the only one doing.
Sorry.

[DrNick]

where IS the op?