just can't get through to my cold and angry dh

[superdry]

no matter how hard i try i just can't seem to communicate effectively with my husband, any issue, even vaguely contentious, ends in a row, he won't engage with me, he won't listen to me, just goes yeah yeah, whatever, which inevitably leads to me trying harder to get him to listen, which eventually leads to him losing his temper, and sometimes threatening with some kind of violence - if i am lucky i get an apology the next day, but his manner doesn't really change as he always claims i provoked him, i won't leave him alone etc etc - the only way we have any kind of peaceful life is if i never complain about anything - anything at all, thereby 'not starting an argument' - i can go for weeks like that but inevitably i eventually 'have a go' at him about something or other, and the cycle begins again. i feel emotionally drained by it all, its the same old story, he says i am the one with the problem and obviously i think its him! any nuggets of advice out there? we have 2 young children

How do you know your FIL doesn't behave like that now? I'll bet he does, when he's alone with your MIL.

Think about this: what if you were to talk to your children the way he talks to you? What if someone else were to talk to them like that? What about when they are older - especially if you have a daughter?

That would be horrible, wouldn't it? Intolerable, in fact. You would know in your bones that no-one deserves that, not least someone you love and care for and are meant to support

You have no idea what your FIL is like when they are alone. I bet your DH doesn't display his own worst behaviour in front of his parents does he? So why would the reverse be the case.

As for your previous relationship, unfortunately you've just met a couple of them.

Twinklestein

Completely agre. Children are little bundles of instinct and empathy. They see and feel everything that's not right

Hi Op, I'm afraid I agree with other posters, this man won't change.

I could have written your posts as my ex behaved in an almost identical way to your H. I stayed in order to keep my family together too, I didn't believe my little girl was affected by my relationship because I put on a good act and kept everything away from her. It was only after moving into refuge and seeing her blossom into a happy, relaxed and confident child, from the very first day in fact, that I realised how much she had been affected by everything.

It was unavoidable really when I think back as I was living half a life, I was emotionally drained and battered, even though I planted a smile on my face and tried my best to be a happy and attentive mummy I didn't really succeed, because everything I was going through dominated my mind, it changed me.

Once in refuge my daughter started asking me questions about things she had heard, she had been in bed but heard him shouting and sometimes smashing things. She was only seven but she had this need to understand. For a few weeks after we left he tried to talk me into going back and she would whisper in my ear "You aren't going to love daddy again are you mummy" or "We aren't going to move back into daddys house are we mummy." She kept me strong and she kept me focussed, not once did she cry or ask for him. His abuse intensified when I was pregnant so she had grown up with it, it was all she knew, sad mummy and angry daddy.

I used to use his childhood as an excuse for his behaviour as it was less than ideal but, the truth is, he is a grown man, responsible for his own actions, his childhood didn't force him to be an abusive twat, he made that choice himself. What kind of a man wants to inflict the same kind of childhood on his own children that his own parents forced him to endure?

Me and DD have a wonderful life now, almost four years after leaving, abuse free, a life full of fun and laughter, leaving was the best thing I did. I spent far too long trying to understand him, I spent a small fortune on books trying to find a way to cope, a way to live with him. My advice to you OP, cut your losses and leave. Save yourself and your children because you can't save him. You and your children deserve a far better life than the one you are living.

his father changed after having a break down and lots of therapy, i truly believe he has changed but he is still a domineering personality -

also leaving would break my daughters heart as she and her father have an incredibly close relationship, if she had to choose between living with me or her dad, i reckon she would choose her dad

That's why children don't get to choose these things because they don't make the decisions that are truly best for them.

I do wonder about your DD.
Children may feel the need to be close to abusers because it makes their life easier.
In particular, she may take his side over you because she knows he has the power.
Once she is free of his influence and in a healthier environment, you may notice a change.

Besides, they can still have a good relationship if you separate. Unless he disappears from her life, but that would be all him. Not your fault.

She could still have a relationship with her father.

Lweji is right.

She may be incredibly confused.

OP

Have you looked at the Womens Aid link I gave earlier?

Lastly

I wish you could be a fly on the wall in homes where disagreements don't result in rows, where discussion isn't closed down, where affection sin't withheld, where cruel words are never spoken, where violence is never implied never mind threatened, where you can feel relaxed and understood.

Being close to her father may be a self-protective, survival mechanism for your daughter. Females reaction to a dangerous man may be to try to befriend & pacify for their own safety.

Moreover, people in abusive relationships can develop ties to abusers in what is called 'trauma bonding'. 'Stockholm syndrome' - where victims of kidnapping/hostage form bonds with their captors - is an extreme example.

Your daughter's bonding with her father may be based on her perception of herself as a victim.

Also (and I'm not an expert here but I do know how some children react to bullying in school), if a child sees another child being bullied, as well as wanting to protect themselves, they may also start to feel as if the recipient of the bullying must somehow deserve that. Imagine the confusion in the mind of a child who sees her father (who she loves) bullying her mother (who she also loves).

his father changed after having a break down and lots of therapy, i truly believe he has changed but he is still a domineering personality

You are making excuses for him in order to try find a reason to stay with him. This, even though you know full well that being exposed to this violent twat will probably do lasting damage to your child. To put it bluntly, you are as bad as he is.

To be fair to the OP, denial & masking of abuse may be part & parcel of 'trauma bonding' which she is likely involved in herself.

The problem is of course that this is to the detriment of her children's wellbeing.

thanks ageofgrandillusion for spreading the love and empathy! to call someone who is attacked as bad as the attacker is pretty harsh, and quite frankly the way my dh thinks! if i felt bad before you sure as hell haven't helped with your lovely words

Why is keeping this family unit together so important to you?. Is that what you were told when you were growing up, that you must keep it all together regardless of cost to you?. Made your bed type and lie in it type nonsense?.

By staying you are showing your children that this treatment of you is acceptable to you on some level.

We learn about relationships after all first and foremost from our parents, your DH learnt a lot of rubbish and unsurprisingly has followed on with the same abuse he saw and learnt about in his own childhood.

need s more examination but you have already said that if you decide he is not listening you keep hammering the same message home until..and beyond ..tge point he gets annoyed. signaks lije 'yeah yeah whatever' really are 'ok I've taken in the info now you are going on so much I am starting to resent you talking about it'

I suspect you need a 'I have heard' noise or comment that he isn't used to giving and so you keep on and on.

A rel counsellor I knew had some theory about this treatment hardening a man's emotions a little each time. I have had thus treatment from a woman who said that 'men never listen' what was actually happening is that every time I said 'ok I understand' or ' yes ill do that' she said she 'knew' i didn't mean it, or 'knew' I wasn't listening really. When asked? Because she 'is very attuned'. she never Trusted me to do tge thing or behave differentlywithout pointed reminders.. thereby 'proving' that I hadn't listened and she 'had to' remind me.

It took a while but I learnt to make hearing noises and she learnt to say things only once or twice. .. perhaps some different techniques would give you a different outcome.

keeping pushing and paving when signals say 'stop' is kind of abusive in itself

superdry none of us wants to break up a family unit, especially when the abuser is so 'good' with his or her children.

But here's the thing; by being abusive to their mother, he is being abusive to the children.

He is teaching them to disrespect you, to treat you as a sub-human, that violence and aggression are not only ok but useful in getting what you want. He's teaching them that a man should be dominant and that power and control are worth more than love, respect and compromise.

His father may have changed with intense therapy. But look what he did to his son before the change. Do you want that for your children?

At least, with him gone, they can maintain a relationship but won't be exposed to the horrible nuances of an abusive relationship.

I believe people can change but only a) alone, b) because they want to and c) after intensive work and a long time.

What you're feeling is normal. You need to think of how you feel when it happens, as it happens and cling on to that feeling. Because you've been conditioned to talk yourself around.

But your instincts are not wrong. This should not be happening.

Superdry , hi, I so see your pain and your efforts and determination to keep your family unit intact.

The issue here is how little you are heard and how little your needs count.

You give and give and give, and try and make your needs smaller and smaller; but there comes a time when the cost is just too huge.

When I tell you to accept him for who he really is, I mean it. It means dropping the hopium pipe (that he will change) and stopping looking to him to give you what it is you need. Instead, creating an alternative support network who can.

I really advocate Al Anon which helps co dependent tendencies of focussing on the other person instead of taking steps to nurture and look after your self.

not dead, i agree with you to a certain extent, i am crazy to keep repeating myself to my dh, he certainly sees the way i go on as a type of abuse - and thats my point, i don't think these things are entirely black and white ie. he the baddie and me the goodie - yes what he is doing is appalling, but there has to be a point where you have to take some responsibility for ones part in the toxic atmosphere that creates these horrible episodes

wellwobbly, you are also right, it will check out al anon

Could you give us an example of an argument?

Superdry, what kind of advice are you looking for?

What do you expect us from our computer screens to offer you?

My stance whenever there is a fear of violence is to take the kids and walk, I can't in all consciousness suggest you remain in a situation whereby you risk coming to physical harm.

What exactly do you want?

Why is remaining in a marriage where there is a threat of violence and no mutual respect, love and understanding so important for you?

You and your husband are role models for future relationships for your children.

The thing is it doesn't matter how much YOU want to change things at home. You can want and try and devote everything to changing things at home - but he won't change. He has no interest in changing and the fact that it is something you want/need means he is even more scornful and indifferent to it.

So keep searching for a way YOU can stay and solve this - but what we are all telling you here is that you are wasting your precious life away.

Change needs to come from both parties - and he will have to undergo a major personal transformation to change - and you can't do that for him or your family.

And to be blunt, this family you are so desperate to keep together, is getting more and more damaged by the day. I think what ageofgrandillusion was saying is that if you know this, and you choose to stay in the relationship, then you are participating in the abusive environment your children are constantly exposed to. This might be difficult to hear - but you talk of wanting to take responsibility for your part in the toxic environment - well there it it.

Instead you are focusing on what part you play in causing your H to behave so horribly and abusively. Why not accept that he is responsible for himself and he chooses to be the way he is? You are responsible for yourself - and you can choose to end the relationship and then create an entirely new space and place at home.

All you can do is work on you and make the best decisions for your DC and yourself. It is dreadfully sad if you think that the best decision for you all is to stay in this horrible negative relationship. Not only is it negatively affect your DC, but you seem to believe this 'family unit' is worth preserving, at your expense, for your DC's happiness.

You can have a much more positive family unit with just you and your DC. Maybe the responsibility you need to take for the toxic relationship, is to question why do you stay, and let yourself be treated like rubbish by this man. What everyone here is telling you is that there are options.

The reason no one is advising you how you can fix your H and things at home, is because those answers don't exist. If they did the wise MN'ers would be sharing them with you.

Without you both working towards the same goal, you trying to make this work alone will destroy you.

You cannot change him. You cannot make this better.

just to reiterate my dcs are not constantly exposed to his behaviour, in fact they have barely seen it, you all seem to be advocating that the only path is to completely change our whole lives, because of a nasty behavioural pattern in a man that occurs approximately 0.001% of the time - as laughable as it may seem, apart from these horrible episodes i like my life, my home, my friends etc

i posted on here because i was feeling crap, if you look at this as the first step before contacting womens aid, i certainly wouldn't expect someone at womens aid to tell me i was as bad as my DC for staying in the situation, i just don't find that kind of 'advice' helpful

one day i may well leave him, in the mean time i'd like to think i can come to places like this for some kind of support so i don't feel quite so alone, i am aware that mumsnetters can be quite militant, but jeez - give the girl a break, i am only human!