So upset I don't have a mother in the traditional sense.

[sweetkitty]

Don't know where to start this but I got a bit upset this weekend and I know I shouldn't have as its the way it is.

We (DP and our 4 DC) went to visit my brother, his DS turned one last week and we couldn't go to hs party as my mother would have been there and it would have been too much to bear.

I haven't seen or spoken to my mother in 4 years. She has always been emotionally abusive with me, my brother is the golden child always has been. In her words I was an independent madam who didn't need her and I have always made her feel as if she was beneath me even as a child. The EA escalated and I had to move out when I was 19. We has quite a distant relationship until about 4 years ago I thought "why am I making any effort when she doesn't?" she has said and done loads of nasty things over the years. If I phoned her, the whole conversation would be about her and her woes, she deliberately tries to make me feel bad. In all the years she could never pay me a compliment or say anything nice about me. She is very resentful of me and the fact I went to uni although to everyone else she is so proud of me, the first one in our family to go to uni etc, she made out we had the perfect mother/daughter relationship. She also told me she never felt welcome in my house although her gifts and money always were, (much of the time I told her to keep any gifts as she would moan about how hard up she was).

I just stop making any effort then got a few letters from her which I replied to basically telling her all this but again nothing was her fault, everything mine. I gave up I the end, returned any gifts she sent etc.

She is totally misogynistic in that men are better than women, she has told me that you at only a real woman if you have a son and that all men want a son and DP would leave me if I couldn't give him one. DD1 she was happy about 1st grandchild and all that, DD2 she couldn't have cared less about and DD3 I was crazy to have (told me it was for the best I have a mc whilst mcing). I could write all day about the things she has said to me.

So now I visit my brother to hear about how much of a doting grandma she is and it hurts, I knew my brothers DC would always have taken precedence over mine but she has my nephew over one night a week to give them a break, childminds whilst SIL works etc (even though she's told me a woman's place is in the home and your DH would leave you if your earned more than him).

The thing is I don't want her in my or the DCs lives, we are all better off for her not being in our lives but I want a mother like what she is being to my nephew. My MIL was lovely but she's dead now so my DCs only have one GP my Dad, DP and I are in our own with four DC (I had the hallowed boy fourth time around she's never saw him) and its hard.

Ive had counselling as I've suffered from depression, anxiety and have very low self esteem, I know she probably has NPD, I know this is common between mothers and daughters, one black sheep, one golden child. But it still bloody hurts, I get angry at myself for allowing her to annoy me but then think "why me" TBH I was a great daughter never a minutes worry, went to uni, good job etc.

Thank you if you have read this far.

[Lottapianos]

It does make sense Shamy. It's not everyone's cup of tea I guess and you have to be 100% committed for it to work. It sounds like she has done really well though. Hopefully her self esteem has recovered and she realises it was her family who were wrong, not her.

[ShamyFarrahCooper]

I don't think so our family is fairly complicated and I don't think she 'gets' counselling, if that makes sense, it just wasn't the done thing. I think her sister was the 'golden child'. My mum was told make up was for sluts, chaperoned on dates etc whereas her sister was treated extremely differently. I wouldn't want to say too much on here in case other family members use here (I've no idea).
It makes a lot of sense though and yeah i'm really proud of her for doing what she did. It must have been incredibly hard albeit the circs where for a different reason than her upbringing.

I think everyone who has been through this and come out the other side is fantastic and should be really proud they are the person they are in spite of their parent(s) not because of them.

[Lottapianos]

It is absolutely exhausting MrRected. You're right, it is totally futile trying to please them. I can't tell them about anything that means a lot to me, or anything that I'm feeling a bit wobbly about because it feels like they get their hands all over it and start telling me what to do, instead of giving me the space to talk about it and reach my own decision. It feels like a violation and makes me so angry.

Yes yes to simmering In some ways, that's harder that being at boiling point though. Don't underestimate how much it wears you out.

Shamy, I'm so glad your mum took that positive step for herself. Do you feel you could ever discuss counselling with her?

[ShamyFarrahCooper]

You know, I think my lovely mum's DAD was like this to her. It makes a lot of sense (don't want to say too much, sorry)

My mum has ALWAYS been adamant that my sibling and I are treated equally. In my opinion, some times to her detriment as she worries about it so much. I wouldn't mind being treated slightly differently, I just want my mum to be happy.

Happy to say she did cut him out her life when I was young and it was great for her, unfortunately imo the damage was done. My mum could use counselling I believe but her age & upbringing would stop her from doing it if that makes sense?

[MrRected]

Thanks so much Lotta.

To be honest - I am fatigued and have given up. I have been through this all before. My parents and I have gone a long time in the past without speaking (last time 3years). I know they will never change. My anger, over the years has cooled. I reckon I am simmering - LOL.

Sorry you are struggling so. Your posts resonate with me so much. The sheer futility of trying to please unpleasable parents - that makes me sad.

I don't regret my choices. I still cry for my Mum when times are tough though. X

[Lottapianos]

'I feel bereft of proper parents and intensely bitter'

It's so horribly sad . I scare myself with how angry I get sometimes. I hear people like you saying that you have made the choice to make a better life for your children and to protect them from your parents behaviour, and I get even angrier at my own parents for not being able to put my needs above theirs. Ever.

Keep posting MrRected. How does it feel in your gut - like you have done the right thing, despite the pain?

[MrRected]

Sweetkitty - I too am in a similar situation - the only difference is that both of my parents always doted on/preferred my brother.

I haven't spoken to them in 18 months . I have given up. I know that I will always be a poor substitute for my brother, despite the fact that he treats them like shit. It was tolerable before I had children, but I won't tolerate their passive aggressive bullshit behaviour when it's directed at my children.

I feel bereft of proper parents and intensely bitter. I will watch this thread with interest.

[Lottapianos]

'I shouldn't need a 'mummy' at my age should I?! '

I think you always need your mum Choo, just in different ways as you get older. She should be the one person in the world who will always be on your side, who allows you space to be yourself, who revels in seeing you grow and learn and get older. I hear my friends talk about going shopping with their mums or meeting them for dinner and I feel so sad and very jealous. Their mums drive them stark raving mad sometimes but deep down,they love each other very much and really look forward to spending time together. That's just not the reality for me.

I saw my parents at the weekend and they gave me grief about my job, my friends and some of my hobbies. How dare they! I showed them a photo of my friend's baby and my mum said that she was glad that baby doesn't have my friend's nose! Charming! I'm 32 but they were doing their best to make me feel like a child. They have absolutely no respect for me whatsoever - they see me as an unhinged, stubborn, attention seeking drama queen. It makes me so angry and it's so hurtful. I know it is their problem, they are the ones who are wrong, but it's horrible to feel like you don't have a family in any healthy sense.

'I do seem to spend an awful lot of time sobbing these days - am hoping that means making progress rather than just wallowing in it!'

Ditto to the sobbing! And I know how you feel - I plague myself with thoughts about how I 'should' be better able to cope, 'should' be more on top of it at my age, 'shouldn't' be falling apart like this. That word 'should' is evil! It sounds like you are processing a lot of really painful feelings and letting them out - that's a good thing and it takes a lot of strength and courage to face those feelings. I read a quote the other day - 'self care is not the same as self indulgence'. There is nothing wrong with allowing yourself time to grieve and feel exactly what you're feeling. Definitely progress

[ChooChooLaverne]

Lotta, well done to you too. It sounds like you're making progress. I do seem to spend an awful lot of time sobbing these days - am hoping that means making progress rather than just wallowing in it!

Now I feel extra guilty for posting as my mother is in super nice mode at the moment - think she knows she has been spectacularly bad and is trying to draw me back in again. Even though I know this I still can't believe it and just want her to be my mummy. I'm 43 FFS! I shouldn't need a 'mummy' at my age should I?!

[Lottapianos]

Choo, it does stir up a lot of feelings which can be really horrible and traumatic. I have been experiencing depression and anxiety lately because I'm feeling things that I haven't allowed myself to feel for years. It's like pulling the lid of a box that's rammed full, stuff comes spilling out everywhere. I'm trying to stop fighting it and allowing myself to cry and feel dreadful and actually its helping me to feel calmer and more in control. Well done for facing it - it's so painful.

[ChooChooLaverne]

Arfur - I'm glad some of that made sense! I went to my GP and was lucky that I got referred to a very good counsellor who I clicked with and found easy to talk to - it really is the luck of the draw though. I told the GP I needed counselling so they wouldn't fob me off with ADs as I knew I needed to talk about it.

I saw her for 12 free sessions then as we'd barely scratched the surface I've carried on seeing her privately which is expensive so I only go fortnightly as I can't afford to see her weekly - means it's quite a long process. I have found it really hard at times and I nearly gave up and ran away at one point as I found raking up all this stuff stirred up my anxiety quite badly, but I do feel like I'm getting there slowly.

[arfur]

Armadillo - I too have read Toxic Parents and found it helpful, altho like you I dont want to have a relationship with my mum anymore so I find that tricky - I did the confrontation exercise in a virtual way by writing down all the memorable things that hurt me and found that very cathartic (sp?). I also had cbt (altho for eating related issues) which hasnt sorted out my food issues but did actually make me understand the cause of my problems so a step in the right direction I guess.
Choochoo - totally makes sense! And wow I feel your pain at the 'sometimes shes nice and that makes me feel guilty that Im too hard on her because her childhood was awful" etc. Exactly what mine does, shes currently attacking me indirectly via my brother telling him I wont talk to her (when she hasnt actually tried contacting me!) and that she hasnt seen my kids for ages (shes never been interested in them, doesnt even remember their birthdays) grrrr! I try not to let it get to me but it does, she even dealt my brother a low blow (too long a story to go into) which made me so sad for him but he doesnt see the spite in it (or at least if he does hes hiding it well).
Choochoo how did you find your counsellor? Am building up to being brave and making a gp appt but it feels like a huge step as it will be admitting that I 'have a problem' when outwardly my life is really very rosy in all other ways. Rambling now, will go and chat to my chickens instead

[ChooChooLaverne]

It's amazing there are so many of these mothers. Do you think their mothers were all as bad so that's all they know? I know my grandmother was a terrible parent and my mother had a horrific childhood.

So I find myself making excuses for her behaviour because although my childhood was quite terrible it was nowhere near as bad as my mother's. But, despite this (or perhaps because of it) I will do everything in my power to make sure DS never experiences a lack of love or is made to feel there is something wrong with him because of my inadequacies. So why couldn't my mother have done the same?

Mine sounds similar to Proudnscary's mother in that she does have some good points and she can be lovely. But, I find this so hard to deal with because you never know whether you're going to get nice or nasty and when she's nice I feel guilty that I'm too hard on her. In some ways it would be easier if she was always horrible then at least you could deal with the worst aspects and you wouldn't have the hope that she might actually turn into the nice person you see glimpses of.

I'm having counselling at the moment and my counsellor said my heart had been broken by her when I was a child and have been carrying around this hurt all my life. Until I'm able to accept she is who she is and that she wasn't able to be the mother I wanted her to be, then I won't be in a position to forgive her and move on. Does this make sense to anyone else?

[TheArmadillo]

I got counselling through my gp because of having quite bad mental health problems because of my upbringing. I had CBT which helped enormously (I didn't really know what it was when I started).

I tried talking therapy but we both decided within a few minutes I knew why I was the way I was, I had gone through books -toxic parents by susan forward and controlling parents by Dan Neuarth and latterly Children of the self absorbed by Nina Brown and Will I ever be good enough by Karyl McBride - and talked through a lot of stuff with my dh and friends, so talking therapy wasn't for me.

While waiting for NHS therapy I did have a few sessions of talking therapy provided free by a charity who have been supporting me up till recently, they also until the last couple of months got a volunteer to phone me at least once a week (this is one of the things they do). If I ever win the lottery I'll give half of it to them as I'm not sure I would have survived without them. They are a local charity who support women post natally with mental health problems (although mine weren't related to the pregnancy/birth and I was pregnant though with an older child when they started supporting me).

The therapist does make a difference - my CBT therapist was fantastic and I think the fact we clicked made the whole thing much better/more effective as she seemed to understand me.

I tried 'if you and your mother can't be friends' but found it was written very much for those who were staying in contact with their mother and looking to forgive them and so not for me.

[Proudnscary]

Arfur, counselling really helped me. I had it about 11/12 years ago, it was a private counsellor recommended by a friend. I paid a minimal amount because she helped out people who couldn't pay full whack. However if you have a good GP, then def start there. You should get a referral.

It's worth remembering that not all counsellors are good so it can take one or two meetings to find the right one. Mine was absolutely perfect for me - got the bones of me and my family immediately. She was actually very, very funny and a bit of a maverick with some of the hilariously unprofessional things she said about my mother! But I loved that - I felt she was totally on my side and believed me. The main thing I came away with was:

1. It's not my fault
   
2. My mother will never change
   
3. It's ok not to love your parent - the world won't implode if you admit that to yourself
   
4. Keep these toxic parents at arm's length, never trust them
   
5. It is OK to cut contact if they are blighting your life

[arfur]

My dad died last year and in february my mum sent a text to my brother saying she hoped he'd come back and haunt me and you know it was like something snapped physically in me, not in an angry way just like thats it enough is enough. I havent spoken to her since and I am happier than Ive ever been in many ways. I occasionally feel physically crippled with grief at the loss of my dad and the mum I should have had but Im slowly coming round to the idea that it was never what it should have been and never will be, but it doesnt stop me mourning that loss and feeling sad for all of you who are in the same situation. Can I ask those of you that have had counselling how do you go about it? Is it GP referral and how do you know if theyre any good? Am thinking of trying it but dont know where to start.

[mummymafia]

I had a similar relationship with my dad, although he died before I married or had kids. I had some counselling after he died & they said to me - "it sounds to me like it never would have been right, even if he lived till he was a hundred. It's not your fault, sometimes it's just like that." That helped me enormously, it made me see that whatever I had done, how ever 'good' i'd been, it would never have been enough. I was able to move on. Also, have you considered mindfullness meditation? It really helps focus on the now & what is special in the moment, not what is missing from it. Stick mindfullness into Amazon books & see what it comes up with & if anything takes your fancy.

[Proudnscary]

Lottapianos - I think my mother has narcissist tendencies.

[Proudnscary]

I'll adopt you

I've posted many times about my mum.

She is toxic - sly, untrustworthy, stupid, selfish, self pitying, unaware, insensitive, intolerant (she does have some good points too actually, genuinely. She is a wonderful grandmother to my dc - though not to my brother's).

This week she has sent spiteful texts to me, followed by guilt tripping, gushing, apologetic emails and though I have become a dabhand at disengaging and ignoring, I am dying inside with all the confusion and emotion.

You only get one mother and MINE IS SHIT!!

Sorry there are so many of us and sorry to vent about my own situation, Sweetkitty, but I'm kind of posting in a sisterly solidarity kinda way honest.

Am crying and I never cry...dammit...!

[sweetkitty]

So sad to hear all these stories. I think it's worse when you become a parent yourself and you know how much you love your children, that you would die for them 10 times over. You think "how could you do that to me, I'm your child"

I keep joking that I want to get adopted, there must be a childless couple out there in their 60s, would want a grown up daughter, a SIL and 4 Grandchildren.

[grumpyinthemornings]

I completely get this, I haven't spoken to my mother for two years, although she was the one who broke contact for crazy, messed-up reasons of her own.

My brother, who has Asperger's, was the golden child. He could do no wrong, while nothing I did was ever good enough. Even in hobbies and interests that we shared, he was encouraged while I was told to give up because I'd never be any good.

When she broke contact, it was tough, and I tried to keep the lines of communication open. But I've come to realise that I don't need her negative influence in my life, without her I am a much happier, more confident person. I'm just stunned that it took me so long to realise this.

Because of this, I'm also finally able to break out of toxic friendships too. I have a close group of friends and a family of my own, all of whom love me unconditionally, as I deserve. I don't need or want anything more.

[Niome]

Making a book is a good idea....as I too don't have any family or anything that knew me when I was little......so I have written a story based on my childhood....what my mum did to me and how I coped with things...it is done in such a way that it is a story........it was my therapy, but I am seriously thinking of publishing it. I have changed the names of the people in it so noone would be able to relate the story to my life......and I will use another name to pubish it too. My children know I have written this book and have told them that they would be able to read it when they are much older. Not done in a vindictive way either.....do a book.....helps sort oyur mind out too...

[TheArmadillo]

I keep meaning to do some kind of scrapbook for my kids but can never face it. I have no photos of me up till I was old enough to have a camera and then very few (less than 5 maybe?) as I was the one holding the camera. I think it is something I do want to do though. I want them to know I had a life and experiences beside the abuse. That it isn't everything I was or went through.

Most of the time I can cope with it its just I have a stomach bug and am feeling generally sorry for myself and it drags me down.

I had a fantastic therapist who pointed out a lot of people are in a similar situation for a variety of reasons - family overseas, dead, unable to provide support for other reasons. And at the end of the day we are born alone and die alone irregardless of who we are.

And yes dh has fought for me and supported me against my family.

TBH in a way having my background has empowered me. I know surviving what I survived has meant that I can face anything and come out okay I was driven to the brink of complete insanity and came back. If I can do that, I can do anything else I want

[Niome]

thanks fellowshipoffestive fellows......good to hear another opinion......I am involved by supporting my sisters and brother, and do feel bad that my 'mum' is so ill, but not for who she is, but for the fact that I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Nothing I can do for her......just be there for those that matter really.

[FellowshipOfFestiveFellows]

God that's so awful, reading that you feel that way.

Of course you are loved and surely your DH would fight your corner whatever? I know my dp would (and has done).

If you really are that worried about your dcs should, God forbid, anything happen to you, about them not knowing anything about you pre your marriage, then make a book. Just buy a scrap book from WHSmith or staples or similar, and fill it with pictures, photos, and write down everything you'd want them to know. You know, favourite bands, where you grew up, what school you went to, anything you think might be relevant. Then, when nothing awful happens to you, you will still have this brilliant record for future generations.

I know how hard it is to detach. It gets somewhat, but not completely, easier. The fact you have nightmares though concerns me a great deal, perhaps counselling could help you go through what you went through?

The thing I always think is that, you need to realise that this was NOT your fault. Not at all. These parent/s they were adults, who should have known better. You are not to blame, you are the victim here. It is awful how many cases of this kind slip through the net- the problem is detection. I never had bruises on my body, never looked neglected, had clean clothes and was an a student. BUT if they could have looked inside, at how wretched I felt because of the words she used to me, well, if words were bruises I'd have been taken into care in minutes.