marriage advice from muslim women please!

[HardlyEverHoovers]

(and also non-Muslim women if you have any insights!)

Hello/asalam u alikumm and also Ramadan Mubarek. This is my first post, after browsing for some time, so please forgive me for any mistakes in etiquette.
I need some advice regarding my marriage, and from reading some old posts it seemed other muslim women may have dealt with similar issues. I'd be particularly grateful for advice from anyone who has managed to move beyond the point I'm at now.
I converted, by the Grace of God, to Islam about 8 years ago, I got married about 3 years ago, to a Muslim man from a different country, who has a position of authority within the Muslim community. We now have an 18 month old son and live in the UK.
My husband is great in terms of practical help in the house and with the baby and all that, and the bottom line is that he is a good man. However, he has restricted my freedom more than I could ever have imagined. There are a couple of things I do regularly (go to the local shops alone and meet wiht some Muslim women once a month a so) but to do anything beyond this takes a lot of negotiation and is met with much grumpiness and dissapproval. Even a simple thing as taking the baby to the park with a friend. I no longer am able to visit my family for a night without my husband, let along go and stay with friends. I don't attend any Islamic events or lectures (before marriage I was active in the Muslim community). I may occasionally be able to meet a friend or go to town alone, but I find the process of getting him to agree so stressful that I don't really bother asking.
Sometimes he will just say no, and not have a good reason, which is bad enough, but a lot of the time he gets his way by making everything around an event so stressful that I never do it again. Frequently I have been in floods of tears minutes before I'm due to go out, friends to arrive etc. I'm reluctant to resort to the word abuse, but this sort of behaviour makes me feel that way.
I am becoming very isolated, and I'm concerned that my relationship with my non-Muslim family, which has always been positive, is being affected.
On an emotional level I feel that I can't be myself. he doesn't respect my needs or my emotions. If I try to talk to him about how I feel, I get hit with the Islam hammer, and made to feel that my feelings are 'wrong' Islamically.
There was no warning of this before marriage, either in what I had seen of him (he was my teacher before we married) or in the discussions we had before marriage.
Because of the baby I've tried to keep a very peaceful atmosphere despite all this, but I am feeling I really need to take action as it is making me emotionally and physically unwell. I have had several miscarriages this year, and I believe that stress is not helping.
I've tried to be brief here, I can say more if needed. Has anyone dealt with similar issues in a positive way? I would hate the marriage to end and my family to break up, but I really can't imagine living like this forever.
Thank you.

[HardlyEverHoovers]

Crescentmoon you are so right about the 'getting to know' thing. With us it is an even slower process due to language.
I'm so glad you stuck it out and have reached this point alhamdulillah, I hope in 5 years I'm saying the same thing

[HardlyEverHoovers]

Crescentmoon, once again so much of what you said sounded familiar to me. Someone gave me some advice while I was in the process of meeting potential husbands (long, painful, soul destroying process!), which was only to discuss make or break issues, not every little matter that might come up in a marriage. Therefore, I stuck to asking his views on the things that really mattered, I didn't ask about how much he wanted to be involved in childcare, whether he would help in the house, as they weren't make or break for me.
Then I decided to pretty much accept what was on offer. I was surprised how involved he is with DS, I think maybe he's surprised himself with that one! I don't mind doing most of the housework, even though I know I don't have to. As he is the main breadwinner it feels pretty 50/50.
In terms of the help I do get, it isn't always exactly how I would like it, in that he might clean the floors a different way from me, but that's where another principle comes in - which is to accept the 'gifts' as they are given. I think that is from the Surrendered Wife book, where you see help, and other things as 'gifts', and if you received a gift from a friend would you give it back and say it's not quite the right thing? No, you would accept it gratefully with the intention it was given in. So that's what you do with DH's attempts to help. Otherwise he might not bother again. That one makes a lot of sense to me.

Like you Crescentmoon, I don't have that marriage based on friendship that I thought I would have, though there are elements of that. But I know people with that sort of marriage, and their marriages are not without difficulty either. Like you, I seek things outside of my marriage in order to strengthen my marriage.

Back to the more difficult aspects of my marriage, things are still going OK, though after a couple of weeks of the calm after the storm, I can see the moodiness creeping back in. I know I now need to find the strength to ignore them as much as possible. I also wanted to let him know how happy I have been with the last couple of weeks with being able to go out and about and have a bit more of a normal life. I wanted to keep channels of communication open, but I knew that bringing it up would cause him to be defensive. I tried to say it in the best possible way, but he did respond quite defensively (you do what you want I'm just happy with God, type comments). Not sure how to get to a point where we can have some kind of ongoing positive communication about this. Maybe that's expecting too much?

[SanctuaryMoon]

Thank you for the support, it means so much. Part of the problem with having no family or friends nearby is that there is nobody to vent to

Raindrop I didn't see your post earlier but you are right, this approach to marriage is something that I would love to see in my community.

I have made the bonfire joke to my husband a few times now Chaz but he doesn't go for it for some reason... The advice on where to start to thin things out is gratefully received. I will check out the fly lady link too.

[HardlyEverHoovers]

Santuarymoon you sound like a lovely person, just reacting how we all do to lifes difficulties. It must be really hard when your family is far away (should also probably have that sympathy for my own husband!).
Raindrop, yes the advice on here has been lovely, so glad you have found it useful.

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

Sanctuary

There is a flylady thread which might give you some ideas
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/good_housekeeping/1552832-Its-September-so-the-Fledgings-Fly-as-we-wave-our-clutter-bye-bye

As a large bonfire doesn't sound like an option for the books, I'll give you a serious answer. For me, the key to getting rid of the books was to start with the ones I wasn't really emotionally attached to or were clearly out of date. So I got rid of novels I didn't like and travel guides that were old and had no sentimental attachment. If you really want to tackle it I would start with any books like travel guides and the like that go out of date and don't relate to the trip of a lifetime. I recently donated my baby related books to a charity shop as my youngest child is now in school just keeping the one where I had noted down dates and appointments.

[SanctuaryMoon]

Very good advice ladies, thank you. Hardly what you say about walking away from a marriage is just right. I have a burning desire to run (I'm from abroad, hubby is from the UK, so I miss my family etc) but it's not as easy as that and I know deep down that I'll only have the same feelings, but with different scenery!

Chaz, any tips on how to declutter when it's books we are talking about is welcome! The baby toys aren't so much of an issue, and tidying up after my daughter is easier than tidying up after my husband

I must check fly lady out - I really need to come up with my own plans and do a bit each day so I feel as though I'm getting somewhere near to keeping a decent house. I feel like I do everything half as well as I ought to - being a wife, parent and employee. It's harder than I expected! We investigated getting a cleaner, and I know this sounds silly, but the house is too untidy to have someone in! The amount I have to move around to actually clean is ridiculous. We just seem to accumulate more stuff than we need. For me, I think it's been about having possessions after moving to the UK, for hubby it's just part of his genetic make up along with eating chocolate and spending every evening with his nose in a book!

I will take your advice on telling him what I want to happen. I need to do this more regularly rather than waiting for the anger and frustration to kick in and being unreasonable as I know this happens a lot. He's probably left walking on egg shells. I'm not a very nice person, am I .

[raindroprhyme]

What a refreshing read. Marriage is hard work and require constant work and compromise from both parties. i have found some of the advice given to you OP very helpful to my own situation (christian marriage 3 children super busy working household). Why is it the Muslim community can support marriage in such a pragmatic way and i struggle to find that support in my own religion and culture. i hope you and your husband find a path through what life throws at you. Something no on etells you on your wedding day is what utter hard graft it is.

[HardlyEverHoovers]

Sanctuarymoon, sorry you're having a difficult time. It's so nice that you have decided to try and work at it. I think there is a real problem in this society that if people don't feel 100% fulfilled in their marriage they feel they can walk away - the problem is they would probably just find themselves in the same situation with someone else 10 years later, as marriage is just like that at times, from what I can gather!
I hope that with patience and and a bit of work you can feel happy about your marriage, as it sounds like your husband is a good person. Now, as the OP and so clearly not someone with a perfect marriage I probably shouldn't be attempting to give advice, but in my current position of optimism, here goes!
Although it's not a very fashionable beleif, I do think there are fundamental differences between men and women, and one of the implications of that is that women have to make more effort to sort problems like this out - men just don't seem to be so aware. I've also noticed that I seem to set the tone of the marriage - if I'm OK, we're OK, if I go off the rails, so does the marriage, the house, and everything else. Your husband probably needs you to spell out what you need, and may even be relieved when you do!
As for the house etc, you have my deep sympathy! I only study part time, and still find it hard to keep on top of the house. I declutter regularly and get rid of things we don't need, and we're lucky to have a bit of space where we can store things we don't currently use (always seem to be rearranging things as DS moves into different stages). It seems to be a bit better these days, I spent a bit of time trying out different routines for cleaning etc, you can find them online, I really liked flylady (you can google it) but ended up writing out a plan for myself, with daily, weekly, and monthly tasks. I don't always stick to it but it does help.
Giving everything a home also helps hugely - it took me a while to learn that it doens't have to be anything grand like a specific peice of furniture to store things in, it can be as simple as 'DS's toys live under the coffee table', 'wallets and keys go in a dish near the back door'. It just means when you come to tidy up it's a simple process of returning things to their assigned placed.
Tidying up in the day seems to be almost impossible at the moment though, as DS follows me around whining and getting everything out!
In terms of help from hubby I find the same as you (he has not yet even learnt his way around the wardrobe, and asks me where his trousers are everytime he needs a clean pair!). I find it less stressful not to expect too much help and think of it as a bonus when it happens. I've also had really amusing conversations where my husband asks me why I'm always cleaning (and by the way, my house is very far from spotless), and I'm like 'would you like to see what happens if I don't?'.
As you both work full time, would it make sense to get a cleaner, at least just to give it a blitz once of week or so?

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

Sanctuary - I am very like your DH about books. I have whittled down my collection to hundreds (Ok probably 600) now because of space issues and I have read them all at least once. I use my kindle for those books that are books I am likely to want to read often more than once but don't feel the need to physically own / collect. I felt it was a bit selfish of me, when we were short of space to take up quite so much of it with my books e.g. I cleared out enough books so there are two shelves for the children's books and I notice that they do go and help themselves to books now.

Too much stuff and lack of space is a common problem and it is really difficult to keep on top of things with a toddler helpfully undoing all your good work. I think you just have to do the best you can for now, things will get a bit easier as your daughter gets older as she will need less direct supervision and will help you with putting toys back in the box etc.

[SanctuaryMoon]

Chaz I love the idea of the Kindle, but my hubby loves books for aesthetic reasons - and he can probably tell you when and where he was when he got every book he owns - over 1,000 by now. Some are collectable, some he has whole the whole series, some he reads regularly and others he just wants to keep. He used to have a fit if I read any of them because he doesn't even crack the spine

I do love the analogy of rowing a boat together though I am sorry to hear of the losses experienced by you and your husband during your time together.

Right now I am struggling because I feel overwhelmed generally by life - we have a 17 month old daughter, and hubby and I both work full time. The house is usually a tip, I just can't seem to keep on top of the housework. The worst part is we have too much stuff for our small house - so it's really hard to keep it clean and tidy because there is stuff everywhere and most things don't have a 'home'. Hubs will help but I always have to ask, and often give clear instructions. I should be more patient, but it does get me down. Yes honey, the bin bags are under the sink, where they were the last billion times you asked. Yes honey, we have to vacuum again. Yes honey, the bathrooms do need cleaning again.

Sorry - I've completely hijacked your thread ladies - as you can see, a lot of resentment and anger to work through. I'm embarrassed that things like the state of the house get me down, but it really does!

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

Sanctuary I am the book hoarder collector in our household. I've solved the problem by buying a kindle. Perhaps you could get your DH one for Eid or his birthday.

Following on from what cresentmoon posted. Marriages are dynamic and they will go through good and bad patches even when they are generally good. Whilst we have been married both DH and I have lost our last surviving parent and DH has lost two siblings. Sometimes you are in the boat rowing together smoothly and other times one of you is rowing like mad whilst the other is barely able to row at all. I have found with my DH that he is not so good at recognising how I am feeling so if I am struggling because I am upset or grieving I tell him exactly how I am feeling and what I want him to do (e.g. I am feeling sad right now I want you to give me a hug). Unless I tell him I need emotional support he often doesn't pick up on it but will offer lots of practical help like shopping and cooking.

My one big thing I have learnt is not to step in and take over, especially with household stuff and childcare, if DH changed a nappy in a different way to me it didn't matter because he had changed the nappy. DH likes shopping more than I do and he buys most of the children's clothes. Sometimes he buys things I wouldn't have chosen but he likes doing it and its one less job for me. It is healthy to let him do his fair share, he will be a more connected father and you will be more equal partners.

[SanctuaryMoon]

I am afraid I have no advice - on the other hand, I have learned a lot from what you have shared and the discussion here. I'm feeling very dissatisfied in my marriage at the moment - my husband is a lovely man and an amazing father, but I feel so unfulfilled and empty. It has been helpful to read how you have approached the challenges in your own marriages as it helps me to see that I've been selfish and angry and trying to place blame where really there needs to be patience and kindness. It will be a challenge for me as I am possibly the least patient person on the planet, but I realise I have to take responsibility for how I am feeling and make the effort to make this marriage work as there are certainly no deal breakers (unless you consider his ever increasing book collection ).

[HardlyEverHoovers]

Aw that's lovely Crescentmoon, and fills me with optimism.
I think in this society we are short changed by ideals that are fed to us about what love/marriage should be like, leading to dissapointment. But the harmonious coming together of two souls is bound to take work, so good to hear that you stuck it out and got to a place you're happy with.
I must say that the parenting side of my marriage is the one place I have no complaints. DH does about 50% of the parenting I'd say.
I like your idea about not being a mother after 7. Despite taking on lots of elements of not so western parenting, bedtime at 7 is something I've stuck to, also with the use of controlled crying, as I really need that few hours 'adult time'!

[worldcitizen]

crescentmoon how lovely of you to share this with us. Marriage is really a journey together, it seems.

[worldcitizen]

hardly PM sent

[HardlyEverHoovers]

Thanks!

[worldcitizen]

hardly I'll pm you

[HardlyEverHoovers]

Welcome Santuarymoon (what a lovely name), thanks for taking the time to read and I'm so glad you got something from it. It's interesting you used the word dignity, all the time people ask me why I came to Islam, it's very hard to give a short answer, but the one word that I always come back to is dignity, which is what I saw in the Muslims I knew. I thank God if I've managed to take any of that on myself, and I suspect that I have a long way to go!
Worldcitizen that's a really good idea. Do you mind me asking what your background is? English/German/Other/Muslim/non-Muslim. No probs if you don't want to say.

[SanctuaryMoon]

I couldn't help but read this thread from the beginning, and I am so pleased that I did. I hope that it is okay that I comment, I am not Muslim and I know next to nothing about your religion however I hope that the feelings of calm and patience I feel stay with me and that one day I may be as gracious and dignified as you ladies here. Thank you for being open with your beliefs and views on relationships, it's really got me thinking about my own and what I might do differently.

OP I am very pleased to see your positive update, and for the other ladies struggling I hope that you can find a positive way forward.

[worldcitizen]

Sort of a community exchange..lots of money being available from the EU for that sort of thing.

[HardlyEverHoovers]

worldcitizen, that sounds interesting, what do you mean my 'an exchange'?

[worldcitizen]

hardly thanks. I do like it a lot and I have this now on my watch list so it doesn't disappear.
I have actually learned a lot myself and received lots of conformation for my beliefs and my views. I have also taken mental notes of the suggested websites and organisations, as there might be a possibility of an exchange with my country and hometown. I am here in Germany.