Male pride vs marriage...advice please

[goldgirl41]

My husband is self employed and we have three children aged between 6 and 10.

I have been struggling financially to balance the books for the last four years, from the time I stopped work to look after my youngest. I work 25 hours a week (school hours) for his business and all the housework, washing, school stuff etc outside this time.

I'm trying to find out a rough figure of what a family needs to earn to get by, with an average house, mortgage, one car etc. I believe a family of five cannot survive on £30,000 or less p/a, which is what we've been doing for the last 5 years. Last year we drew £15,000 from his business. There is more in the business account but he wants to keep it in there.

I now need to explain this to my husband and let him see that this is suffocating our marriage. He is intensely proud and driven, and I am getting to the point where I feel that I am taking all the financial strain in order for him to live his dream. I tried to work full time last year (when we completely ran out of money) but having no support (childcare or personal) from him made this impossible and I had to stop. He still expected me to work for his business as well as look after the children and work full-time.

The reason I am posting this is to get some "evidence" to go to with him - I have tried spreadsheets galore which show we spend £40,000 p/a or more, and his response is just that we need to reduce our outgoings, and that I need to get new business in for him. At present his business has no work in the pipeline. Every time I try to talk to him about our situation I am accused of being negative and/or unsupportive.

As you can probably tell there are other things going on in our relationship apart from money, but the situation is eroding our relationship. I am about to start a part time job for mornings only but am sure he won't help with the childcare for the first week before the children go back to school.

Any advice would be very welcome, thank you in advance. I think I am not able to hang on for much longer.

Goldgirl41

[perfectstorm]

Apart from anything else, large houses mean large bills. Insanity, when you are struggling. Small terraces with party walls and good insulated lofts cost less to heat than big rooms with outside walls all over the place.

Three kids and a job after being part-time for a while will almost certainly attract tax credits. And if you're married and primarily responsible for the kids, you'd be entitled to a much larger share of the equity, too, particularly if you've not worked outside the home/his business in a while, as it would be expected that you'd need to take time to establish a career, and meanwhile would need to home three children.

www.hmrc.gov.uk/taxcredits/payments-entitlement/entitlement/question-how-much.htm

You can also get a free initial appointment with a solicitor or two, to give you a rough idea of what equity you'd be entitled to. Apart from anything else, if you do decide to give your H a wakeup call, instead of leaving, having it in black and white that living with him drastically adversely affects your finances strengthens your hand.

[mouldyironingboard]

I think your plan of moving to a smaller property is a good one. Would you be entitled to tax credits?

It does sound like you'd be better off on your own as he has completely different priorities to you. Living in a large house while not being able to pay the basic bills and having huge debts seems completely wrong to me.

[Jux]

Don't work for nothing for him. Hand him an invoice for what you do - I mean everything you do, including child care, domestic chores, everything. Do it evey week. Let him see in financial terms what he getting for nothing, and what you are therefore contributing financially.

Give him an ultimatum, sorts out his business properly or else.......

He only looks at the financial side of things so show him the reality of it.

[perfectstorm]

So he makes you miserable, he makes the kids miserable, he's destroying you financially (you live in debt), he won't contribute domestically or allow you to work in a job that actually earns money, yet expects your free labour to prop up his hobby, and he treats you with contempt. He treats his kids with contempt (forgetting his own child's birthday? WTF?) too, if he isn't willing to take financial, practical or emotional responsibility for their welfare. He spends large amounts of money on totally unnecessary IT, won't remove cushion money from the business despite owing relatives debts, and is disinterested in what his behaviour is doing to everyone around him. He sounds a peach, OP.

If you have a lot of equity in the house, and would get tax credits as an employed single mother, and wouldn't have to work for nothing him so would be able to work fulltime... wouldn't your finances be dramatically better? Not to mention the fact that you'd have some control over debts, if he wasn't leeching from relatives to prop up his career failures. And tbh, sooner or later he's going to suggest using some of the equity in the house for a business loan or expense. That's going to be a hard one to deal with.

I think you need to do a list with reasons to be with him, and reasons to leave, on opposing sides.

[AThingInYourLife]

I'm not a freelance designer (although I work with them) and I was at his £20K upgrade. I'm glad Vivi was able to substantiate what a ridiculous, unnecessary piece of vanity spending that was.

The fact that he expects you to do the actual, hard work of bringing in business while he pisses about on his totally over specced equipment being "creative" shows this endeavour for the utter folly it is.

[ToothbrushThief]

Oh OP you could be me writing this albeit different details. My ex was distant from family. I held it all together, helped prop up his business whilst working myself and running the house. He had freedom to plan his day and spend as he chose ('it's for the business') whilst I ran ragged, scraping pennies and not eating even. I also carried all the worry to the point of sobbing in front of him to try and get him to appreciate the problem. We lurched along like this for 3 years (at the end of our 21 yr marriage) and then I called time.

Bliss.

I took over every debt, mortgage and household bills, he pays no maintenance - and I'm better off
The atmosphere in the house is relaxed and happy as well

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

"He sees his work and him as one and the same". "He lives in his own world"

I think he's using work as an excuse to duck responsibility and stay in a comfortable bubble which removes him from the awkward business of having to be a grown-up. Like the type that disappear into potting sheds or their laptops for hours on end rather than have to make conversation with their family. I'm not sure why having children makes it more difficult to be honest. When one says 'it's calm', think of what they're not saying about the atmosphere they live in the rest of the time.

[joanofarchitrave]

How I wish my mother had been like you. She nearly killed herself trying to make my father's financial idiocy approach work. An awful lot of it was about continuing to live in a large house with a status that he liked, with a 'business' which brought in almost nothing. I have no doubt that my mother liked the status too, but if she had been brave enough to take him on, she would have moved earlier I think; I'm not quite sure why she went on and on trying to hold it all together to the point where it crashed spectacularly. The house sold for a large amount which was just enough to pay the worst of his debts (I doubt that everyone got paid).

Realistically, either you hand over more family financial responsibility to him (which sounds like a very poor idea) or you say that you are no longer prepared to live like this and you want some changes to happen. It's perhaps not impossible for your relationship to improve and survive, but it sounds unlikely I'm afraid. The thing is, it will die anyway if things go on in this way.

[ViviPru]

Sounds like you have a good plan. He is not in a position to argue, what he's doing IS a hobby if it's not bringing in enough to cover the family's outgoings.

FWIW, I'm a freelance graphic designer. I upgraded my Mac and software last year and the whole system came to less than 5K. 20K, wtf?? My income from the business after tax and expenses is around 5x what he's taking considerably more than he's drawing down and I don't need a 20K computer system to earn it. If I could only make 15K a year I'd be having a serious career rethink. Is he keeping the money in the business to avoid hefty tax bills? If so that's utterly futile if the family is struggling to keep its head above water.

All this 'healthy balance' in the business is just vanity. A freelance designer is essentially a jobbing tradesperson, its not a scalable business that requires a healthy financial buffer in the business should an investment opportunity or unforseen expense arise. The only real expense is equipment and he's already seen to that (in spectacular fashion) His 'business' comes across to me as one big vanity project.

[angeltattoo]

Oh.

You'll be fine; from what you've said you'll be fine. You have options, and that is a lot.

Follow through on your options; if you can pay family back and still have a home, he would be a fool to anything other than support/help/follow you all the way.

Good luck, keep posting...x

[AnyFucker]

Yup. Your financial plan sounds like the right one. Do you think he will go along with it ?

Or is the useless status symbol of the large house you patently can't afford in the same bracket of the persona of the "successful businessman" ?

Ie. it's all about how he is perceived and not based in any reality at all ?

[goldgirl41]

accidentalchickenkeeper - as above he's a graphic deisgner. We've never ever earnt more than £35k and that was only when I was earning through private PA work and charging it through his company - which probably made £10k extra per year.

We 'lent' the company £10k last year as it made a loss - it came from a small inheritance he got from his grandmother and its still in there now. Converted to directors loan account.

I am tempted as a 50% shareholder to draw out my 50%.

He just seems to want to see a healthy balance, however hes going to get a shock cos the first thing he has to do tomorrow is give me a personal cheque for the £3k credit card bill this month, £1k of which is some garden stuff he wanted to do. So he can pay for it.

I'm going to hand the finances over to him - or make him look and absorb each bill we have and pay. Sick to death of being the only one of the "partnership" who is worried about this.

We also owe 3 family members a large (and I mean large - many, many thousands) amount of money and he seems to have conveniently forgotten about this. I'm talking £7k, 16k and another amount I can't even write down. I set up a standing order to start to repay it when I was working but had to stop it when my earnings went west.

On the plus side we have a ridiculously large house (larger than we need) and a lot of equity in it. I am thinking downsize, repay everyone and then have a cushion. And I will do it with or without him.

God I'm mad now!!!

Thank you again for all your help. Writing it down and then reading it back makes the scales fall from my eyes...

[AnyFucker]

I hope so, love x

[goldgirl41]

Thank you for all your posts - you have confirmed what I already knew, I'm in a dictatorship, not a partnership.

He sees his work and him as one and the same - I am able to split the two and thats where the problems started.

He's a graphic designer - he worked flat out last year and the business would have made a bigger profit but he needed a new computer system (I know, I know) so that lost the family £20k.

He lives in his own world, has always been freelance so just doesn't get so much about business and how to treat clients, suppliers, business partner (aka wife) and if I ever offer a different view or disagree, he doesn't like it one bit.

We have 3 kids as well - which would increase the £36k I guess?? Older child has SEN which he just struggles with too.

I know what I need to do, just getting the courage up to do it. If it was just me I'd tell him to sling his hook, but its the kids that make it so much more difficult, They are my life.

He's been away for the last ten days and its been great! I have felt really relaxed, in control, my middle DD said "its really calm isn't it" the other day. Am dreading him coming back.

It is all about him - however from next week (DD birthday party at the weekend and theres no distraction from that) things will change.

[Mumsyblouse]

Mentlejen I also thought of that figure of £36,000 from today's news.

Op- this is not enough money, I don't understand why your husband's dreams trump your reality and why he doesn't do at least some childcare/household tasks. It's all about him, isn't it?

[HeartsTrumpDiamonds]

Sounds like your husband wants to be living in the 1950's....

[Vicky2011]

This is about more than the money, though I understand that is the real and immediate issue. He sounds vile and controlling and, frankly, a bit of a failure in lots of ways. Sorry if that's harsh, but if I was working so hard that I couldn't remember my child's birthday, I would expect to be earning enough that we weren't struggling financially. I can't imagine how you wouldn't be better off without him.

[oldwomaninashoe]

My DH is self employed and I used to help out with some of the admin, when I worked part-time, however as soon as it became financially necessary for me to work full time because of lack of business he took over all the admin etc as, being slack, he had the time for it.

Once I was working full time he also pitched in with the "childcare" and household duties etc.
Thats the way it works, if his business is slow, and you are having to work, he has the time to drum up new business.

We have had financially some very tough times over the years but if anything its made us closer.

[accidentalchickenkeeper]

What is the business?
If its only providing an income of £15k p.a with him full-time and you part-time it's not really working is it?
What sort of profit is the business making each year? What reasoning is your dh giving for keeping money in the business account while you struggle with day to day finances?
Sorry lots of questions there!

We run our own business so I appreciate how hard it is to juggle money about. We do live quite frugally at the moment but no way would I allow the business account to grow at the expense of our basic standard of living.

[AnyFucker]

I am very sorry. Your marriage sounds like a penance. He forgot his daughters birthday ?

Unforgiveable (on top of everything else)

[angeltattoo]

I have to ask, what is the business?

A marriage is a partnership, I agree with PP that he does not sound like a partner. If his business cannot support the family, alternative options need to be considered and implemented, whatever they may be.

If you have the figures, the already have the evidence. What would you advise a friend to do, if they came to you and asked you this question?

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

I'd take advantage of his trip to get to a solicitor. He's not what you call a family man, is he?

[goldgirl41]

Oh and to crown it all, he forgot our daughter's birthday yesterday (he's away on a business trip (jolly). I had to text him to remind him to contact her.

Makes it a whole lot more straightforward, I feel like a light has gone out within me.

[mentlejen]

Saw this and thought of you..

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18770783

"Families need £36,800 to live acceptably, study says...."

[pregnantpause]

A family needs to have enough money coming in to cover what is going out- including food, pension, etc. A saving if possible of six months expenditure in case of emergency, and enough hopefully for luxury- whether that be as basic as school trips and cinema or holidays depends on the amount left over.
Other than financial a family needs stability, warmth, trust, role models, hardwork-teamwork, and love - reading your post it is here you are lacking.
You feel emotionally blackmailed because you are being emotionally blackmailed. His problems are your problems and your problems arte your problems.he wants you to support him and carry him and refuses to support you, or seemingly his dc. He is obviously selfish and cruel- expecting you to shoulder any burdens that are too tiresome- like childcare and finance.

I can't believe that you are afraid to use the word hobby- fear is not desirable or necessary in a relationship.

Read your post back, and consider what kind of husband he is. You need to provide evidence? Prove yourself? You've tried to express you fears and problems and he's told you that they arent his problem, so f%$k off to a counsellor if you expect to talk about i- on your own of course because he gas no interest in your feelings. I notice you do not refer to him a 'd' husband. I don't blame you- what are yoy getting from this man apart from grief?