does emotional abuse need to be delibarate to be abuse?

[livingonthedge]

I've looked at various books and websites on emotional abuse but most describe it as behaviour designed to be controling, manipulative etc. (my italics). So does there have to be intent? oh will shout at me, call me a fcking btch, stupid etc if I do something "wrong" (say lose a whel hub) but I do not htink that there is really any thought-out intent. He just "loses it" and gets really angry. So is lack of anger management different? I've tried to talk to him about his behaviour (have tried to get him to see that it is not usual to shout so/be so agressive) but his argument is that I am unreasonable (eg not taking care of the car) and so he gets angry.

I'm not trying to say that I am unreasonable (am confident that most of the time I am not) or that he is justyified in losing his temper - just asking whether there is a differnece between emotional abuse and lack of anger management.

Ie I get (now) that most relationships do not seem to invlve one party swearing directly at the other but with abuse partners are they actually thinking, in a calculated fashion "right I'll do this so that ..." ? or do they just lose it?

[wicketkeeper]

X-post - just read the explanation from HerHissyness. Couldn't have put it better myself...

[wicketkeeper]

Living - PM = private message. if you click on the 'Message poster' link at the extreme right of this post, you can send a message direct to my e-mail. You still won't see who I am, and I won't see who you are, but only the two of us will see the e-mails, if you see what I mean.

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner.

[crestofthewave]

'I'm not nasty to you.I just don't like you'.One of the many sayings of exP.What do you think of this?

[thisishowifeel]

Bloody catholic as well......never helps does it. That whole virgin whore shite.

[thisishowifeel]

Some interesting stuff on this thread.

My h is reclusive, and has a problem socialising with me. He was always happy for me to socialise alone, which was not what I wanted.

He was always perfectly normal until something triggered a weird reaction in him, and he would verbally abuse me, relentlessly. Once he started, he couldn't seem to stop.

I have come to realise that he has MAAAAASSSSIVE (YES THAT BIG!) issues with his mother, and is transferring her onto me. We got together as she was dying. She was an alcoholic....he once told me, when in one of his weird abusive states, that I drink two litres of wine EVERY night. Well I like a glass of wine, but two litres? And then the school run? He was talking about her, not me.

He told me that his mother would ruin every single social event that they ever attended, including christmasses at home, because of alcohol.

We, (him, me and dc's), were invited to a famous actors birthday party. I was VERY excited, we booked a hotel room etc etc, and the night before, he went into one these weird states where he said that we wouldn't be going because I would get drunk and show him up. I was devastated at this, because I was so looking forward to going, he had made a unilateral decision, based on something that simply wasn't true. Gutted.

After his therapy last year, he was starting to get over this to an extent, we went to a wedding and two funerals together!!!! Although the first funeral took two therapists to get sorted. ( Jesus flippin' wept eh?)

At one of the funerals, I FINALLY met people who had known him since college, and I invited them to come and visit us at home, which they were really keen to do. I don't know what he was always so frightened of. I don't know why he wasn't aware that I am NOT his dead mother.

When he was younger, he was so ashamed of his family, that he wouldn't tell people where he lived, and if he ever got a lift home, he would get them to drop him a few streets away...he still lives his life, hiding a few streets away.

He has upped the stakes therapy wise, and is waiting to go on a perp programme. He cannot live with me and the kids though, it's all too weird, and too damaging.

I feel desperately sorry, but I cannot help him, only he can. And I love him to bits, despite it all.

[helcarmar]

Only one thing to add to the wise words already here. An abusive ex-boyfriend (no kids, marriage, or even living together as I got out -thankfully pdq- don't let these things stop you leaving btw, for this is what is the right thing to do. You know that this behaviour is abusive now and not just normal arguments that can be resolved like who does washing-up etc)

Anyway, my ex saw women in only one of two ways:
1, Inferior beings to be sneered at e.g. if a woman held up the traffic with her-admittedly -very poor driving skills his response wouldn't be a normal response as in: 'that bloody woman is holding up the traffic' said in a non-aggressive way it would instead be in a very aggressive voice: 'that fat, F*ing c**t is holding up the traffic.

2, Goddesses. Could only get aroused when pretending I was some kind of 'mistress' or something. Had to see himself as kind of inferior to women to get turned on by them.

In fact, the only way I could get him to listen to me/do what I wanted was by taking on a superior attitude. Sometimes when he really scared me, I would resort to this because it is the only way he would listen and I could feel, if not in control, less fearful.
Terrible situation and I eventually saw sense and broke up with him. A lightbulb moment for me was when somebody in a club picked a fight with him-admittedly my ex had done nothing wrong- and we left the club. I was not quick enough in keeping up with him with my walking and he flicked me the v-sign.
I remember standing in the street, thinking : 'What the hell have I done to deserve that?!'

Men like this are incapable of seeing women as equal people worthy of real emotions. You're either a goddess or a piece of shit not worthy of his time.
My ex was also very middle class in 'normal' conversation and not ranting and with people like that, the put downs tend to be more subtle than the 'You're talking shite' variety. Instead you get a constant trickle of: 'You may think that but...' which erodes away at your self-esteem.

[MadameOvary]

This is an excellent thread for demonstrating many of the nuances of abuse. Hopefully it will go some way towards challenging the denial we experience when trying to work out if we are being abused.
"Oh but he's a good Dad.."
"He's not abusive, he helps round the house and everything!"
"He doesn't mean to do it, he just gets a bit stressed"
Means fuck-all. Abusive behaviour is as natural and deep-rooted as, well, non-abusive behaviour in the rest of us, and as difficult to change.

[CardyMow]

Bwahahaha - That'd go down like a lead turd. But I like the way you think! Ex-P is starting to get noticeably more...shirty with me, the more time that passes.

He was meant to give me £30 as half of DS2's school uniform on the 16th, I was waiting for him to do it, on Sunday when he dropped DS2 off, I asked for it. He then went off on one about how he'd forgotten, I should have reminded him (err, NO, You're a grown up, NOT my child) blah blah blah. He was shouting about how he can't help it he has a bad memory. (long-running thing, expects everyone else to BE his memory because he is 'above' having to actually remember anything)

I calmly pointed out to him that as he knows he has a bad memory, he should take some practical steps to help him with this - like carrying a pad and a pen with him, and writing down things he has to remember, and putting the notes somewhere he can see them.

Weeeeellll...you'd have thought I was asking him to boil his own mother in oil, asking HIM to be responsible for remembering things HE needs to be responsible for. He gave me the money, but the interaction, well, he just did NOT want to own his memory 'problem'.

And yet, today, he asked if he could come round more to 'help with the house or baby'. Erm, NO, he is just worried, because I am not enabling his behaviour any more, and I am seeing my friends, and I am dressing more like 'me' again (in clothes he didn't like me wearing outside - not over-revealing, but not long sleeved, round-neck either).

He's worried I'm not going to go crawling back this time. Which is probably because I'm NOT going to go back, crawling or otherwise. And he is slowly starting to realise that. . And TBH, his behaviour at the moment smells so desparate, I'm almost finding it funny! Does that mean I have lost the rose-tinted glasses where he is concerned? Or am I just cruel?

[HerHissyness]

OMG, he's a ffing 2yo!

You know that stage when they get all bitey, and pinchy? and no matter what you tell them, they don't put two and two together to realise that them pinching us, even if THEY can't feel it, BLOODY HURTS!

[HerHissyness]

ha ha... I'd insist on a practical...

H, let me kick you, meaning to do so, and then kick you not meaning to do so...

compare...


Brace yourself....

[CardyMow]

I tried switching it round like that...and he said of course it would hurt ME, you would have meant it, so it would hurt. If I did it to you, and I didn't mean it, then of course it wouldn't hurt, because I didn't MEAN for it to hurt.

[HerHissyness]

hunty, oh no of course not... likewise, an 'accidental' swift kick to the bollocks wouldn't hurt either...

[CardyMow]

HerHissyness - I have actually said that to Ex-P, the thing about a smack in the mouth still hurts even if it wasn't intentional, when we were still together! (Apparently not - if you don't mean to smack someone in the mouth, then a smack in the mouth isn't allowed to hurt them. )

[CardyMow]

LesserOfTwoWeevils - OMG! THAT is what I have been trying to articulate - this : 'I was also bewildered because he was so easygoing and laid back about things he didn't care about. Then he was happy for me to have my way/take responsibility.
But if it was something he did care about and I dared to want something different, he would go ballistic immediately?not physically.'

If Ex-P didn't care about something, I could make my own choice (paint colours etc). When it came down to how his time away from work was spent (long story, he wanted to spend 50% of his time off work with his mum, the MIL that HATED me, and I wasn't allowed to go, and had to look after the dc even though he wasn't at work, and wasn't allowed to arrange things for mhyself leaving him with the dc either) - He threatened to pack his bags and leave. DS3 was 9 weeks old at that point.

I just couldn't get the words out like you did!

[HerHissyness]

PM is private message, click the link Message Poster to the RHS of the post of the person you want to send a message, and you can send a message to an inbox.

When you get a message, a red envelope will flash at the top of the MN page you are on, and you will get an email telling you there is a PM waiting for you.

[babyhammock]

Its a private personal message. Look at the far right hand side along from the poster's name where it says message poster and click on it x

[livingonthedge]

wicket am not sure what PM is??

[babyhammock]

Yup harming the other person, knowing you're harming them and carrying on doing it regardless :(

Add to that slowly escalating the harm too

[solidgoldbrass]

Oh there are different types of abuse: some people are abusive to partners because they grew up in chaotic, violent families where whoever hit the hardest got to have his/her own way, and never learned different ways to behave. Some abusers are operating with this misogynistic sense of entitlement (I would include in this category the men who do absolutely fuck all round the house and then complain that they are not getting to have enough sex on their exhausted wives - these men might not hit or gaslight or belittle, but they are still operating from the position that their wives exist for the man's benefit). Some take genuine pleasure in causing pain, fear or sorrow in another person. Many are massively inadequate, which is why they have to isolate their partners in order to have total control over them: owning another human being and being able to do whatever they like to that person compensates for their sense of inadequacy in the outside world.

Unfortunately, we live in a society that has not moved on very much from the idea that women are men's property, less than human, exist for men's benefit and that men are entitled to control them and punish them if they are not sufficiently compliant. And there are still plenty of cultures/communities where even the most horrible abuse is seen as the woman's fault for being disobedient or unsatisfactory.

[notsorted]

Exactly Scott and BabyH, mine apologised really early on when I started crying and said crying women turned him on.
And perhaps the should put up with it explains why things often turn bad during pregnancy/new baby. They can't cope, they have no way of expressing frustrations except through anger and they realise that you are extra vulnerable. It is a vicious circle.
And it is hard, unless you have very solid boundaries, to say no and because you are vulnerable you put up with more, another vicious circle.
May be that is why it is so hard to leave - you become so familiar with the game that you start in a way making it play out. That is not to blame any victim of abuse. The person who starts it first is the abuser, the person who is pushing buttons that are dangerous is the abuser. I'm stuck on my kinky sex/open relationship analogy - it is fine is both of you want to do either or mud wrestle or have huge rows and great make up sex, but you both have to agree to the game and play by whatever rules you have devised between you. But when you deliberately hurt or when other factors come into play ie DCs then you can't do those things.
I also have an image in my head of an evenly matched couple who just love chucking the dinner plates around the kitchen during a row - a bit messy, noisy for the neighbours, a little expensive after a while but if they agree not to aim for each other, have an equal number of plates and share the cost of replacing them as well as have a code of when it's time to stop and make up then it's their business and while not great is not abusive. If one of them breaks the rules and the DCs are upstairs listening to it all and frightened then it is a no go and abusive. Basically abuse is harming the other person and continuing that harm.
Does that make sense?

[babyhammock]

I defo agree with all that SCOTT said. Also I felt that mine use to enjoy it too. Other people/situations would piss him off, yet he obviously couldn't get angry about that. So laying into me was almost a pleasurable release for him.

This is tooooo weird..sorry, but I would say that seeing me reduced to a crumpled mess turned him on... he would almost always get a hard on and then try and force me to have sex.

TMI ...sorry!!! Havent thought of that in ages..

[SheCutOffTheirTails]

I think the notion of it being "deliberate" is often misunderstood here.

Most abusers don't sit down and make plans for how to control.

What makes them abusive is that they think they have the right to control, the right to call you names, the right to repeatedly lose their temper with you.

So no, there is no difference between lack of anger management and abuse. Because a refusal to control their temper is abusive. It might well feel to him as though he has no control over it, but the reality is that he allows himself that loss of control with you, because he thinks you will put up with it and that you should put up with it.

[LilQueenie]

If a man says he wont be seen in public with you because you embarass him (because you look at other men supposodly) whyis this? Wouldnt he then want to be with you at the time? Why hide away and avoid people? I dont understand this part. :(

[electra]

It doesn't matter as such, but I was interested to know what people think. Of course there is no excuse for the behaviour whatever the reason - I don't think I implied that.

Completely agree about narcs. I think my mum is a narc, she is totally messed up and yet thinks she's the most wonderful well balanced being to walk the earth.

[wicketkeeper]

This sort of thing doesn't go on behind middle class doors
Sadly it does - and even more sadly not many people are able to believe it. I know my parents didn't, it took them years to accept that I was better without him. They genuinely thought I was letting them down.

Living - you find out who your friends are, they may surprise you yet. Your situation sounds so much like mine - I lost count of how many parties, meetings etc I went to without him (he would make sure he was working, or suddenly feel ill, anything to avoid going). Would you be able to PM me? Might be less obvious than MN?