My feelings about how we got together are an issue

[staircased]

H and I got together when I was 21. I was the 'other woman' - he was 26, lived with his girlfriend (she has mental health issues and didn't leave the house much). They had an 'open' relationship and much history including her getting pregnant by another guy (she terminated). I knew her so know that stuff is true btw, which isn't to say he didn't spin the usual.

He told me he didn't love her, they hadn't had sex for eight months, her violence terrified him, he was worried about what she'd do if he left her blahblahblah. All true so far as it went but now, 10 years later, I look back and think 'so why didn't you leave her then? How was cheating on her better?' I had been specifically vetoed, in terms of the openness btw.

Despite my typical-OW defensiveness initially, I quickly realised what a horrible cow I was being and told him I had no respect for him (after she found out, he handled that typically too), and never wanted to see him again.

He spent two years trying to convince me he'd changed and loved me and showed with actions he thought about the world differently and here we are with three DC and, typically, I could trot out lots of 'oh he's an amazing husband and father' shit - he is.

But. Over the years I've had a series of enlightening moments, many right here on this board. And in many ways H is still the entitled arse he was then. I doubt he'd cheat on me in the way he cheated with me, because he couldn't justify it to himself, but he has zero contrition or regret about the way we got together. He says 'how can I regret it when we're so happy and the DC so perfect'.

Yeah well I have a bad taste in my mouth. I hate what I did but have worked hard and am genuinely a better person now. H isn't. He's the same guy. He is also a huge entitled wanker when it comes to sex and I'm thinking hmmm.

I can't make him see the light I think I've seen. He's a lot better wrt his attitudes to rape, m/f 'roles', etc (previously he held the usual wanky views we see so often on here), but i think his major regret about our affair is that I keep going on about it.

I doubt I have a leg to stand on with this given my own history but they say the best way to know what will happen in the future is what happened in the past and how furious with myself will I be if I'm sitting here all muggy in a few years when he's done the same thing again?

Essentially he's still the same wanky person. I see 'she got the booby prize' re OWs and I used to think oh not me, H is different, that was ages ago, we were so young, she was horrible, he loves me, he lives for the DCs.

But unless he feels shit about it I think maybe he is a booby prize. His attitudes to how women are percieved and treated have changed but his attitude to himself hasn't, he could roll his eyes along with me at the cheating partner script but still think in HIS case, back then, it was justified.

He says I should leave it and it's not relevant to our lives now. Maybe he's right.

[ameliagrey]

It's not that hard to follow- especially if you have read all of the OP's psots.

Tortoise follows- so what's your problem?

[springydaffs]

I really don't know what on earth you#'re on about amelia. Ah well, perhaps OP does??

[ameliagrey]

I agree again Tortoise

I wonder too why she wants him to wear the cheater label, but won't apply it to herself? It takes two to cheat tango, doesn't it?

That's where I think she is confused- it's as if by saying he regrets ( though she doesn't want to use that word- she wants him to feel "responsibility") hurting his ex, things will magically change between her and him.

The truth is, he may not have regrets. Why strive to make someone feel something they don't?

OP you cannot control another person in this way!!!

What you have not acknowledged, is that his life since then- being faithful to you, raising 3 kids together- far, far outweighs any mistake he made 10 years ago.

Focus on what you can change- your sex life by the sounds of it- not what is water under the bridge. He has proved himself to you a thousand times over in ten years- no need for him to wear a hair shirt now.

If you don't like him any more and are using the past as an excuse/reason to leave him, then be honest with yourself.

[Tortoiseonthehalfshell]

I agree, Amelia, I meant that the OP was seeing it that way. As in, she's been accepting vaguely dodgy behaviour for ages because she Accepted A Cheater, so to speak.

[strawberry17]

I think this is more about their current sex life.

[TheOriginalFAB]

I wonder if the OP is feeling that as her partner won't accept what they did was wrong he is likely to cheat on her as he doesn't see anything wrong with it. Or else she wants out and doesn't have the balls to say so.

[ameliagrey]

I agree with that Tortoise. However, I do think we have to be careful about labelling people as "cheaters" which are tatooed across their foreheads for life!

This was a very unusual relationship for a start- mental health problems, domestic violence, open but with conditions, no legal ties, no children, people involved very young......

I wonder if the OP would be happy to be labelled OW for life?

I don't go along with this once a cheater then always so- as if ti's some personallity defect that someone has no control over.

I am older than many MNs here and have seen many marriages- including those of my parents's generation- where relationships started when one or both person was already married. The relationships they then went into lasted and were, to outsiders, happy. It's not an ideal way for a relationship to start, and I am sure those involved do carry an element of guilt.

But I think there is less to feel guilty about if you break up a relationship and form a new one, than carry on having flings throughout a sham of a marriage for years, which is what serial cheaters do.

[Tortoiseonthehalfshell]

This is about the current issue with sex, though, isn't it? You've got an issue whereby you're demanding mutually satisfying sex, and he's resisting that. And that's making you question other things about his attitude towards women and sex and fidelity and communication, and the fact that he doesn't feel any remorse for the way you got together is making you think, hmmm, maybe if I hadn't allowed this guy, a cheater, to get together with me the way he did, I wouldn't be having this struggle now.

I do understand the 'conditions' thing - every polyamorous relationship I've known has that clause - so I understand that it was cheating.

But I do think it's a bit of a red herring now if your current concern is more about his attitude towards your sex life, you as an autonomous being, etc. I gather that his views on female sexuality are still very suspect and that's what's really concerning you, but maybe you've been feeling for years like, what did you expect accepting a cheater? And putting up with that? and now questioning it?

[ameliagrey]

I'm sorry Spring but that is simply not what I am saying.

The way I see it- and it is just my view- is that for whatever the reason(s) the OP has become disillusioned with her partner.

By her own admission, she wants him to feel contrition for what he did and somehow articulate that to her. What difference this would make to how they now live with their 3 children is unclear- I wish she could explain how that would change anything.

The way it comes across is that she wants her DH to feel what she feels- some horror and disgust now, 10 years on, at being the OW.

This is despite the fact that he was in a bad relationship when they met, and like many people found it hard to leave. But he did. And she was compilcit in that.

I don't quite understand the "two years" bit- it implies that he pursued her for 2 years whilst he was still with someone else.

OP you made yourself available then- you could have ended it. If you are now feeling guilty, frankly you just have to accept that payback, and get on with life. You cannot expect your DH to feel what you do simply because you demand that of him.

There are obviously other problems in your relationship, presumably sexual issues, where he is not attending to your needs and is being selfish about his own. If this is the real cause of your issues then get help about that, but stop trying to make him have feelings he doesn't.

You talked about wanting him to have "responsibility"- for the past? Okay- what would that mean? What do you want him to say or do? How would that change your marriage?

it was 10 years ago- not a year or two.

You really are jeopardising your marriage with these thoughts and I say again, you need to get yourself to a counsellor to help you unravel your thoughts as they are very muddled.

[springydaffs]

honestly! What's the problem? relationships are full of anomolies (however you spell that). Imo it's called Real Life. People are multi-faceted: there's the good and the bad, the not-so-good, the not-so-bad; and many shades in between. Can you ever say 'this is what this person is; that is what that person is'. I don't think you can. Relationships move and change, particularly if the variables change, particularly as each member changes and moves and the other adjusts. OP has realised there is a big anomoly in the past and she's coming to terms with it. She wants her OH to come to terms with it too, to face what really happened there - otherwise it's a solo trip for her and she wanted them to move to that point together. Not a guilt trip, not blame, just an inventory of sorts - probably because a new phase is dawning eg OP has realised OH is not the god she thought (she's outgrown his godness); OH is very used to having the god slot in their relationship and probably doesn't particularly relish losing it (is probably so used to it, doesn't even realise it's there). And? So far, so usual relationship land imo.

You can't slot relationships into slots imo - why are you trying to slot this relationship into neat slots ameliagrey (etc)?

[TheOriginalFAB]

attitude, not opinions.

[TheOriginalFAB]

What are his opinions on rape ?

[susiedaisy]

i may be being too simplistic here but sounds to me like you just grown up, developed a conscience and realised that wot happened was a bit underhanded, youve now got kids, and that always throws moral dilemas into a new light when we have kids,

[ameliagrey]

OP said" He's a great father but we've genuinely never had a serious issue in our relationship as a couple and he hasn't moved on from the thought patterns which he had as a horrible 26 year old and I probably facilitated that. But he's not interested in growing/changing as a person - which disappoints me. No idea what happens now but he's not the prize I thought he was back then. It's a shock when you realise something so central is faulty thinking."

If you look at the first 3 lines here, it would help you and us- enormously if you used some full stops so that all these different statements were separated out from each other.

You see, your thinking is all over the place.

he's a great father.
we have never had a serious issue in our relationship
he hasn't moved on from the thought patterns...as a horrible 26 yr old
I facilitated that
Not interested in growing as a person
something so central is faulty thinking (I don't get what this means....)

This is full of contradictions.

You really do need to talk this over with a real person who can engage in a dialogue and challenge the things you say.

[mumsamilitant]

ps.. you don't like him anymore. it happens, stop belittling him and move on!

[mumsamilitant]

Blimey! This is laughable... If you don't like him and ameliagrey well done for trying to be middle ground on this... The OP is obviously very angry with her other half for whatever reason, who bloody knows! OP, just leave the poor man and go on your own journey of "self discovery" and leave him out of it!

[ameliagrey]

You said this" but he has zero contrition or regret about the way we got together."

what IS it that you want him to feel- and why?

Okay, suppose he wears a hair shirt and feels remorse. Then what?

What will that change day to day? Anything?

You have conveniently ignored my points about are you expecting him to be perfect.

You colluded in the deceit. You could have walked away but no, you encouraged him, or were at least passive until he made the break.

Why does it matter so much to you that he left his ex for you?

This is really all about your guilt, and the crap sex.

If you have made a mistake by marrying him then face that.

Stop looking for other reasons for your unhappiness with him and be honest.

[staircased]

No.

I can't see where I said I wanted him to feel guilty? I want him to take responsibility. Have taken, even. I don't really feel guilty and never have - his ex was personally horrible to me long before he and I started anything and she spent five years afterwards going on about us to everyone she met. Plus it's difficult to regret something with such positive consequences (this is H's argument).

But he thinks what he did was fine. He didn't like her, he fancied me, he didn't want the hassle of breaking up with her nor of starting something 'proper' with me (not until it was that or nothing), and to him that's fine.

I can say well, we were young and stupid. I know I'd never get involved in such a toxic situation again. H says well, she was horrible.

Now we've hit a little (I hope), bump along the way - an opportunity to forge new heights of physical intimacy, maybe. But not for him, he's flailing around saying I'm rejecting him by wanting physically satisfying sex for both of us.

He's a great father but we've genuinely never had a serious issue in our relationship as a couple and he hasn't moved on from the thought patterns which he had as a horrible 26 year old and I probably facilitated that. But he's not interested in growing/changing as a person - which disappoints me. No idea what happens now but he's not the prize I thought he was back then. It's a shock when you realise something so central is faulty thinking.

You say 'blame' and 'guilt' but that's a bit emotive - I mean responsibility.

[ameliagrey]

Sorry but your posts don't follow.
If you blame yourself, why did you say several posts back that you wanted him to feel the guilt etc as well?

I really, really am having a problem following what your issue is here.

It came across at first as you suddenly feel guilty many years on, for being the OW, and resenting the fact that your DH does not share that guilt.

What exactly is it that's bugging you? It does seem to be several things and you need to separate them out.

You do sound as if you no longer really like him or care for him. yes?

[staircased]

Nah, quite the opposite. I've put the responsibility for the success/happiness of our relationship on me and H has been the hapless child-man who needs direction.

It doesn't matter how screwed up his previous relationship was, he was complicit in their set-up, he agreed to everything, it suited him to stay. Fwiw I've heard of a lot of non-monogamous relationships with power of veto built in.

I've never blamed H for anything, always myself - and I'm just now realising that wasn't (isn't), fair or healthy for anyone.

[ameliagrey]

I urge you to find a good counsellor and talk all of this through. Why? Because your morality radar is skew whiff.

Look back to the relationship he had- ask yourself why his ex should veto you? I'm sorry but in my 50-odd years on this planet I cannot see the sense in having an "open relationship" which has conditions!

Can you not see the stupidity of that situation- okay she said, go out and have sex with other women, but not THAT OW!
Is that fair? His ex by your own admission had MH issues and was violent. Does that not tell you anything about the arrangements they concocted?

However, more to the point- do you believe human beings are perfect? Are you expecting your DH to behave perfectly all the time? Do you set him higher standards than you set yourself? Is he not allowed to have made mistakes? Can you not forgive what you now see as a mistake- i.e. his leaving his ex for you?

Given that they were not married, they were young and all the rest- why do you keep beating him and yourself up over it now FGS?

You were little more than a child TBH at 21.

I really do think that you are somewhat disillusioned with him, maybe because the sex is not working? If you are, then you need to focus on that and decide where you go next.

But stop trying to blame him all the time for your own unhappiness. That's what you are doing, you know.

[staircased]

It was an open relationship but I was specifically vetoed which was a 'clause' they'd agreed to respect on both sides. So she told him he wasn't to do anything with me and he did anyway - that makes it cheating. She had more extra-curricular partners than he did but that's beside the point really. Their relationship was awful but he should've left. I think that's where I get hung up - they didn't really like or respect each other yet he didn't have the balls to end it properly and cheated instead. Or put another way, if he liked me so much why not find the courage to end it properly. He knew I was infatuated with him and a lot of what happened was him taking advantage of that.

The balance shifted after I dumped him but the older I get the less I understand that whole period.

His attitude to sex and our current issues there are linked - I spent a long time thinking I was massively lucky to have him and the fact it was him (plus my lack of sexual experience, I was a very young 21), meant that I thought our sex was the bees knees. But now I don't think the sun shines out of his arse anymore and my sexual preferences are different post-DCs and I feel more secure in myself, I've taken a look at my attitude to sex and his and there's some quite deep-rooted dysfunction there.

He is struggling with it taking more effort for me to be satisfied (ie any), and seems to resent that. His attitude is quite childish.

I'm feeling that we're moving into the next phase of our lives and keen to address nascent issues now so we don't end up in a bad situation some years down the line. Part of that is reassessing the bedrock of our relationship and that seems a bit dodgy tbh. I can't keep thinking I'm lucky to have 'gotten' him or whatever if the guy he was then wasn't worth it.

Whether the guy he is now is worth it is something else and I think he is, but I need to let go of thinking I'm an infatuated child and he's a god of some kind. Seeing the Grand Passion of our relationship from the other side or as a series of cliches is a shock.

[ameliagrey]

yes, BUT I can't get overly worked up over this, because youknow what- what he did is not really that terrible, in the grand scheme of things. Not to me anyway. he left a bad relationship when he was young, not married and no kids. His ex was from what we are told, a domestic abuser who got herself PG with another man.

He needed a push- ie the OP- to be able to make the break.

I'm sorry, I know it hurts to be left, whatever the circumstances, but very few of us get through life without being hurt, or hurting another person.

I think OP that your DH is spot on- this belongs in the past and meeds to be left there.

If you want to discuss your guilt, have some counselling sessions, but please stop asking him to feel guilty just to make you feel better.

[springydaffs]

There are all sorts of whys and wherefores. Say, she (ex) could've said that, because she couldn't do the sex thing, and because she couldn't go out, he could play away [but to keep it from her]. Could be. Mind you, that puts the kibosh (still don't know how to spell that) on her getting pg with someone else. Whatever way, clearly some bad blood went down. DH probably put a slant on it to assuage his guilt - and he's still believing it. That's what's causing OP to feel uncomfortable and to think 'what a shit - doesn't he see what he did?'.

[ameliagrey]

There is some truth in what you say Springy but surely the relationship he was in was so dire and he was presumably there simply because he couldn't be bothered to move on, that it's not as if either he or the OP broke up a solid marriage with children?

I think what the OP needs to work on is acceptance. In her own mind she maybe did wrong, with hindsight, but it's too late to turn back the clock etc etc.

What she must not do is make her problems his- ie expect him to share her guilt in some way to assuage hers.

She can walk around wearing a sack cloth if she wants, but at some stage she has to get out of it and live the life she now has without looking back- irrespective of how she came by it.