The affair of a close friend....

[Acinonyx]

So one of my oldest, closest friends has been having an affair with a married man for a couple of years now. She's single, neither have kids (yet). For over a year I was the only person who knew - now 3-4 others have been told.

I don't like to think of myself as a right old judgey-pants but I can't really view this other than negatively. I have tried to 'be there' and she has wanted to talk about it - but I can't honestly say that I think it's acceptable behaviour to lie to your spouse on this scale.

There is no question of him leaving his wife. She/he has broken it off a few times but now she seems to have 'committed' to this arrangement (her word). She says I have been the most censorious of those told and seems to think my problem is an overly simplistic view of relationships.

A few years ago I fell out with my then closest friend over this kind of situation (that also had additional factors tipping the balance, e.g. kids). I don't want to fall out over this. It's her life, her choice. But much as she obviously intends to justify this situation to herself because she loves him I am not likely to do the same. I don't think we can just agree not to discuss it - it's too big and important a part of her life. But I am struggling to keep this friendship afloat in this storm.

I feel rather aggrieved by the accusations from our recent conversation,that I basically just don't understand. I am prepared to accept her relationship but I just cannot make 'it's OK' noises about it as well.

We both have a habit of being forthright in telling it like it is. Deceit is not normal to either of us. Anyone else BTDT? Am I not trying hard enough or am I trying too hard?

That book sounds interesting - I'll have a look.

Funnily enough, I recounted the latest sorry episode to dh last night and he wasn't as unsympathetic as I though he would be - I think he was trying to negotiate some way forward for the friendship. I think he is certainly very happy with my dim view of infidelity though

I don't think my choice of friends is a problem in my marraige - but they are in my life in general. This is something I learned from my own experience of counselling.

Acinonyx, from reading your posts, it sounds like there are two (hopefully separate) issues here. The first is the general morality of your friend being involved with a MM, but the second is that you believe he is being deceitful not just to his wife, but also to your friend. From what you say, its your opinion of the OM's behaviour that your friend is most unhappy with. Can I ask, do you know this man yourself or is your view of his behaviour based only upon what your friend tells you about him? If this is the case, then she knows in her heart how deceitful his behaviour is because she is giving you the information upon which you are making your assessment. When - as expected - you question the appropriateness of his behaviour, she trots out the justification, presumably re-cycled from something he has told her.

I heard a theory on this recently - that your friend is handing over the responsibility for worrying about the wrongness of her behaviour to you for safe-keeping, because she doesn't want to face what her inner voice is telling her. She wants to pretend that everything is OK, because she loves him, but she can't do that without giving her concerns to someone else. The suggested solution is to stop being the guardian of her inner voice. To tell her you can't hear about or discuss her affair anymore. To remind her that the only opinion that really matters is her own and if she is genuinely happy that proceeding with this affair is right, then there is no need for her to seek your approval or understanding. Its important to be firm - if she tries to discuss it in the future, you would need to re-state that you'd prefer not to discuss the subject. She can always transfer her justification discussions to someone else, or maybe she will actually have to listen to that inner voice. It won't happen overnight, it may not happen at all, but at least you won't have to participate any more. There is no guarantee that the friendship will survive, of course, but it doesn't sound too good presently ...

Good luck - I don't envy you having to deal with this difficult situation.

Very interesting. I have never met the OM!

OPThis is obviously going to be a challenging area for me in general and I need to be clear how I'm going to handle these kinds of situations. Some of you may be wondering about my choice of close friends - and actually I think you would have a point. I think a certain open-mindedness shading into amorality is a recurring theme - the darker side of personalities I'm attracted too.

I think this is not really the point.
The point is you have certain moral standards and expect everyone else to do too. You cannot tolerate the company of anyone who doesn't conform to your idea of what is right.

Personally I don't think friends are true friends if they judge; okay murder etc is not on, but love affairs...? I think you need to open you r mind a bit.

You have no idea what is really going on in that man's marriage- you get it 3rd hand- so you can't judge.

If your friend has accepted this situation then why does she keep talking about it?
is it really that she is wanting you to tell her what to do? If she is, then do that- tell her to get out of it. help her end it.

It's not her behaviour that is giving you a problem- it's your reaction to it. if you only want perfect friends, or friends who live by your rules, fine- but this friendship may go the same way as the other one you allude to.

I was sympathetic to begin with but the more you have posted, the more i think that you are the one with a problem of tolerance and humility. You sound very controlling. This OM isnot affecting your life, so why not live and let live until it all breaks up- which it will?

hang on - you're supposed to be ok with her moral compass, but she isn't alright with yours?

Seems a bit one sided.

Can you not just be honest with her and say that you love her, but you can't get your head around the fact that her partner is a liar, and that really, you will support her but can't talk about it...?

purple - I think you are off base here and we will just have to agree to disagree.

'Personally I don't think friends are true friends if they judge' - I don't agree with this either. Fortunately, you and I are not friends....

that's to purplepeony.

pduck: It's not my moral compass she's replying with - it's actually a pretty weird comparison and a long story to get into (which might out me totally).

I don't really understand why other people get involved in these types of situations. I have some lovely friends who have been involved in all sorts of complicated relationships but, unless I am explicitly asked for advice, I simply do not get involved. I prefer not to know any of the details because I then find it akward and embarrassing to face the long-term partner. On one or two occasions, someone has asked me to become implicated - for instance providing an alibi or something. No way! I don't mind what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes, but no way are they going to drag me into it, thank you very much!

On the few ocassions when I have found myself on the other side of the fence, eg: having a crush on someone when I was in a long term relationship and harbouring all sorts of sinful thoughts, the one or two close friends I confided in got so fed up with ny obsessing that they banned the subject completely. In fact, my best friend gave me the best advice ever telling me to "get over myself". I realised it was mostly self-indulgence and decided to channel my energies into more productive things.

I think when other people get over-involved in this type of situation, it is usually a reflection of their own agenda. Just don't go there - the protaganists will work things out for themselves in the end, irrespective of what anyone else does or says.

OP- your repsonse to me simply confirms my opinion of you.

If you are always wanting to be told you are right and cannot tolerate any one who disagrees with you, then I can see why you are so judgy of your friends, and why you are thinking of dropping yet another friend.

If you post on MN you will get all kinds of responses. If you only want responses that confirm your own thoughts, then say so , and we won't waste time responding to you.

Why don't you simply tell her not to mention it to you if it gets your goat that much, instead of asking for opinions here. it's pretty simple really.

I don't mind your posts purple - all POVs are interesting. I don't really know how much more I can sat to you say since we obviously don't agree and I don't think we could agree - however long we debated it. But if you feel like it - I'm happy to continue.

I am not being funny when I say that it is fortunate we are not friends - if you only want non-judgemental cooing noises from your friends then we would not last long!

tadpoles - I think I may well be too involved but it has been at friend's instigation. I did not offer my opinions out of the blue. I think I probably should pull back though - but I also want to discuss this with friend.

I am not being funny when I say that it is fortunate we are not friends - if you only want non-judgemental cooing noises from your friends then we would not last long!

lol, if only you knew- my friends and are very outspoken and tell me how they see it- but they aren't judgy. There is a big difference.

How do you see that difference exactly?

If it was the situation you describe with your friend, then i think they would behave in this way:
they would not take the moral high ground and say anyone's behaviour was wrong. What they would do is look out for me so that I could see him for what he was, and try to stop me being hurt. They would try to understand why I was so attracted to him and also try to get me to see that it probably could never work. They would tell me I was worth more, but if I didn't take any notice, they would not keep going on about it, but wait with a box of tissues until it all went wrong. They would know it is useless trying to convince anyone in love to leave someone because she/he is "unsuitable".

As it is- and this is the irony- I do have a friend who is having a long affair. I have never judged her at all. I know that she is already going through hell but that she has weighed it all up and made her choice of how she wants to live her life. It is not really my business.

If I found her decision/choices repugnant, I'd walk away and not be a friend any more.

Acinonyx I think it would be a really helpful thing to do as you suggest and outline your expectations of eachother as friends.

I'm going by what you've posted about this - that your friend asked you for your opinions, so you have hardly waded in with unsolicited advice. You have been friends for decades and I don't see that you have got any "agenda" other than to help your friend, but it is also completely fair enough, IMO, to feel unease about being party to a secret that is hurting a deceived stranger. I also don't read that you are being judgemental about the man's marriage, just the deceit that he is committing - and in which your friend is colluding.

I think you are being a good friend, but you also have a conscience. These are qualities that your longstanding friends have presumably valued in you for years, but possibly only when it suited them? I'm glad that you have the strength of character to remain true to yourself and I wish you well.

Does your friend talk much about her relationship?

''If I found her decision/choices repugnant, I'd walk away and not be a friend any more.' I am not at this point over this particular situation - yet. But if I am pushed to accept his behaviour as OK, I might be.

Thanks whenwill - I think you are right, in that people value my conscience but not when it doesn't favour them. And judgemental as I can undoubtedly (and somewhat unashamedly) be - I do not generally wade in with unsolicited advice.

yes we do talk abou t it- but mainly by email as she lives overseas.

They are both marrried with children.

I really don't feel it is my role to tell anyone how to live....there but for the grace of God, and all that.

I don't really know why you are getting so worked up over him- he is a stranger to you.

I can't see why you separate him amd her- without one there wouldn't be this situation. I know he is married, but that doesn't let your friend off the hook.

It doesn't - but he is the one lying to his wife everyday, and he is the one who has made some sort of promise of fidelity. I'm not worked up - but I do have an opinion about that, and when I am told about it I express that opinion. Friend is unhappy that I should think badly of him - but I have the same information she has and I can't see any positive spin on this.