Is our solicitor being obstructive or is it the vendors?

[Unicorncatsack]

Trying to exchange on leasehold flat (we currently rent) and feeling frustrated as it should have really been done by now but bitty little issues keep coming up. Our solicitor is good (I think) and picks up on everything but vendors' solicitor keep implying she is being obstructive. Examples:

1. vendors made an alteration to the flat they didn't get the freeholders consent for. Our solicitor says they need to get retrospective permission. They say they don't.
   
2. our solicitor says a deed of variation needs to be sorted regarding an extension of the lease. Their solicitor has asked the freeholder about this who has said it's not needed. Our solicitor disagrees and says it is.
   
3. buildings insurance: only the renewal quote was provided and not the actual policy.
   
4. up to date office copy entries not provided. Vendors solicitor saying they are not needed. Our solicitor saying she can't recommend mortgage company lend without them.
   
   How normal is this quibbling between solicitors? I know she is acting in our best interests and I'm grateful but the whole thing is very stressful!!

[NoSquirrels]

For the windows, you usually need a FENSA certificate, and if they have changed the style of the windows (e.g. Victorian sash to PVC, or whatever) then you'd need the retrospective permission of the freeholder. If it was a like-for-like replacement just the FENSA, I think? Is it in a listed zone - so would the council need to give permission for change of style of windows too?

As Wolpert says, vendors used a crap solicitor in the first place when they bought hence why issues not picked up. As vendor's solicitor is a friend, they probably used them to do the purchase and are thus responsible. Your excellent solicitor is now putting them to shame, and the crap solicitor doesn't want to admit it now they are costing vendors money & stress. Sympathies to you!

[DarkBlueEyes]

I'd be inclined to threaten to pull out. That might focus their attention somewhat! Alarm bells should be ringing, especially for the retrospective permission. Sounds like they are hiding something and your solicitor is totally on it.

[Wolpertinger]

I would say your solicitor is excellent and vendor's solicitor is crap but vendor doesn't want to know that as their solicitor is a friend.

Your solicitor is now having to rake through a load of issues that weren't picked up properly, presumably by same solicitor, in previous sale which is making it worse.

I've been in this position and the vendor ends up very shitty with you because essentially it's all their fault that they did a bad job when they bought and now can't produce any of the documents because they made a mess of things.

[Paddletonio]

I would actually say DONT get in contact with the freeholder about the retrospective permission. If you do, then you will no longer be able to get insurance. There's no guarantee the freholder will give permission now, so insurance is the better safer and easier option, not to mention a lot quicker.

[lorelei9]

unicorn - I don't get it either. The vendor's solicitor was a friend of hers when I was buying. The solicitor was just a complete a-hole. In fact, I even had to chase for completion - it had gone through at about 10am and the estate agent, my solicitor etc had to call for about 3 hours to get told that.

also they initially sent through the fixtures and fittings forms completely blank and told me "well you can see what's in the flat".

Some people are just arses.

[Unicorncatsack]

I know! I feel like their solicitor is being obstructive on purpose but I can't for the life of me imagine why.

[lorelei9]

oh, 2 windows doesn't sound like something that would need to be hidden from the freeholder....?

how bizarre.

[Unicorncatsack]

Well we had a very thorough survey done and that turned up zero issues so I would hope it's decent work but I guess I couldn't ever be 100% sure!

They replaced two of the windows, that was the work done.

[lorelei9]

the other thing that concerns me is why they should be reluctant to talk to the freeholder about the changes that were made....sorry but I would be wondering if whatever work was done was done properly and safely...?

is it the type of work where that might be relevant or is it just cosmetic?

sorry you're going through this hassle.

[Unicorncatsack]

They are now providing the office copies, I think the issue was that the ones they had provided weren't up to date rather than they hadn't provided them at all.

Yes we're in London - sadly my OH has got to work in London so we are stuck in the south east, otherwise I'd gladly look elsewhere!

Perhaps the freeholder does want a BTL landlord, I have no idea, but what is confusing me is why these issues weren't picked up when the current owners purchased 4 years ago.

I do not need the stress at nearly 9 months pregnant!

[lorelei9]

oh dear
now I know what office copies are, I'm really alarmed that they haven't provided them....

also this latest development rings major warning bells - did you want to be dealing with this freeholder in future?

I hope it gets sorted. Are you in London? Do you think the freeholder might be imagining that a BTL landlord who doesn't care about the detail would buy if you pulled out?

[Unicorncatsack]

Latest from today: vendors' solicitor is getting shirty re: seeking retrospective permission from the freeholders regarding the alterations that were made to the flat. Our solicitor is adamant we need either retrospective permission or indemnity insurance. They are refusing to provide either. They won't even let our solicitor get in touch with the freeholder directly to get retrospective permission. We'll pay for the sodding indemnity insurance ourselves if we must but the whole thing is getting a bit ridiculous.

There's also a defect on the lease which the freeholder is arguing doesn't need correcting. The vendors solicitor says therefore if we want it rectifiying we should pay for it. Our solicitor says this is absolutely not our responsibility.

I don't really understand why their solicitor is being such a PITA as surely he is going to encounter the same issues with any decent buyers' solicitor, even if we pulled out.

[Unicorncatsack]

There are 180 years left on the lease so that is fine, I think the issue is when the lease was extended some clauses were missed out in the new version so our solicitor is trying to get that rectified.

We'll happily pay for indemnity insurance if they won't do it, our solicitor thinks the better option is retrospective permission from the freeholder though.

[TheCrowFromBelow]

Leasehold property can be complex. how long is left on the lease? As pp mentioned you need to have owned the leasehold for 2 years and have 81+ years left to extend for a nominal fee. After this it involves a surveyor, lots of solicitors and IME £££.
We had an absentee freeholder and ended up forking out for indemnities and variations just to sell.
Don't forget your solicitor also works for the mortgage company, and they are very hot on things being watertight now. This wasn't the case when we bought, solicitors used to "take a view" for example under the terms of our leasehold neither the freeholder nor the leaseholders were responsible for the foundations but our solicitor didn't pick up on this being an issue. when we came to sell every solicitor did.

[hydrangea78]

Paddle, no we haven't offered. I'm being a bit stubborn about it. They've done the alterations and not got the correct paperwork so I feel it's their responsibility... but if they continue to refuse I guess we have no choice. Sigh.

[Paddletonio]

Hydrangea have you offered to split the cost with them? Should be their cost but I'd be tempted to split or pay it to move things along

[Paddletonio]

The problem is your vendor's solicitor.

You absolutely 100% need the office copies, that is utterly basic and they should have been provided straight away at the start. Your solicitor cannot report to you on the property without them. However, they are downloadable from the land registry so if the seller's solicitors are really being obstructive just get your solicitor to download them. It will be £12 for the title and plans of the both leasehold and freehold titles I.e. £3 per document.

What is the remaining term of the lease? If the freeholder is not being cooperative regarding extension this would be a big red flag. Or is the issue that the leasehold owner of your flat has not bothered to approach the freeholder? I believe you have to own the flat for 2 years before you get the right to extend so if you don't want to wait years the current owner would need to extend it, or get an agreement to do so and assign that right to you. The longer you leave it to extend the more expensive it will eventually be to rectify, and a short lease will cause you problems selling on. If under 80 or so years left you will also struggle to get a mortgage.

Lack of consent for alterations - I would sort this with an indemnity policy

(I'm a lawyer but not a resi conveyancer so might not be 100% on all of the details of the above, but that's the gist!)

[hydrangea78]

Our vendors won't even take out indemnities for alterations done without planning and building regs. They know we're unlikely to walk away from the property so they always have the upper hand. Feels very one sided.

[Mitfordhons]

If it's holding things up the other side could offer you an indemnity for the missing permission.

[eurochick]

The solicitor's job is to make sure your interests are protected. The vendors and their solicitor do not care about your interests.

[Unicorncatsack]

I don't think there is a management company, it's just a single freeholder. It's only a small Victorian conversion rather than a purpose built block IYSWIM.

[thecherryontop]

It sounds like a lot of the queries raised by your solicitor could be answered from the management pack from the management company... Could they chase this up for you? -I know from experience it can take a while for the management company to generate it...

[Unicorncatsack]

Yes sorry that is what office copies are!

Mine is not brilliant at keeping us informed actually, she just gets on with it behind the scenes. But if I ask for updates I get them immediately. And the estate agent is quite good at prodding the vendors solicitor though obviously I know he works in their interest not ours.

I think I have false expectations - my boss has just offered, exchanged and completed in 8 weeks! We offered at end November. Not too long I guess but it certainly feels like it.

[Postchildrenpregranny]

Both my DCs in process of buying property and we've had the same problem with the 'other sides' solicitors .
The whole process is proving tortuous and I am losing faith in solicitors .'Ours'are very thorough but not as proactive in chasing as we would like and absolutely useless at keeping us informed .Should be grateful they are thorough I suppose .

[MyKingdomForBrie]

Office copies are the title, completely basic document which is most definitely needed!!