How do i know if a DC is G & T?

[aristoBLACKcat]

Please help, how can you tell if a child is Gifted & Talented?

Silly question, i know.

mussyhillmum and GoppingOtter, you'd be surprised at just how many parents are in your position. Teachers don't tell parents (despite DCSF telling them they should) because parents may have higher expectations... and we can't have that! Some of you may even be yummymummies / pushy middle class mums. However, even if you don't believe in the "arbitrary" 10% figure, parents like you would do your DCs a favour by pushing the school to better implement G&T - it would end up benefitting your DC. Ask to see the school's policy on this, speak to the G&T coordinator, ask who the Leading Teacher is, request information from the LT on the extent to which the school is implementing G&T (shame them if they're below "entry-level" on the IQS), ask to see a copy of the school census, write and ask why the census doesn't show the percentage of G&T that National Strategies/The LA/The school's policy defines and/or whether your DC does fall into the top x%. Find out who is in charge of G&T at your LA and speak with them, they are usually very helpful and are on your side (they have the same problem you do: getting the schools to get their fingers out).

The top 10% are NOT exceptionally gifted, they are bright but that is it
No kidding But it's great that your school is implementing the 10% to the letter despite your misgivings. I also commend you wanting to cater properly for "really gifted" - many teachers actively work against this group - but the state system isn't really geared to help you here. My DS is in a top state school, outstanding OFSTED report and top in league tables. I've got a good relationship with the Head and teachers, they are really keen to help my DS, we've got an IES in place and extra resouces ... but the best they will achieve is probably just keeping him from being bored in the class. With the best will in the world they can't do much more what with having 27 other kids in the class and no secondary maths teachers to hand and all. And you don't have the training. I know, I know, you said you accelerate them. How? Down the curriculum? A gifted maths student working at 3x would complete the GCSE curriculum before the end of Y4. So you need to accelerate him outside of the curriculum to avoid the dead-end problem. You have all the material and training for that?

but don't see any reason for labelling them G+T.
Yes, that's the hang up, isn't it. The "labelling". Teachers are a funny lot when it comes to what they call "labels". If there's a "label" attached to G&T provision they'd rather drop the provision than find some way of dampening the effect of the "label". I feel that one of the keys to provision is to overcome that obsession. If they're in the top 10%, they're clever. Or cleverer. Find some other term if "gifted" makes you cringe. But "not ignoring them" isn't exactly giving them what they need or deserve.

I still maintain that the cleverer 60-month old children have not acquired enough SKILLS to be labelled G+T, and 'ability' at this age is muddied by the home environment.
I agree that home environment makes your job of assessing "ability" and "potential" more difficult. But the DCSF seem to disagree with you on whether it's possible to identfiy the top 10% in Reception.

I have never taught a child in KS1 who is L4/5, and I KNOW that I would recognise an exceptional ability
Maybe. But I think that teachers sometimes over-estimate their own abilities ;). My son never stuck his hand up in class, did shoddy maths work because it was so much below him, and deliberately made mistakes because he was so bored. For two years his (very experienced) teachers didn't recognise his ability. How would they know he could square any two digit number in his head within 3 seconds... if they never asked him? How would they instinctively know he was sitting in the class mentally playing around with irrational numbers and performing mathematical operations on infinity? They judged him on whether he knew his number bonds to 10 ..and he made it a habit of pairing 6 with 5 and 9 with 4.

I would recognise an exceptional ability, probably by acclerating him/her in a higher year group. ..will differentiate work accordingly.
I'm not a teacher but I suspect your "differentiation" would be highly inadequate for children of exceptional ability.

Dadatlarge - interesting comment about your son's maths ability.

I completely agree that some teachers overestimate themselves and are hell bent on proving parents wrong.

It has happened to me in the past until I brought in the evidence to prove my son could do X,Y and Z. Prior to that they were arguing with me as though I was delusional.

Exceptional reading does not necessarily mean G&T. It would have to global ability - at least that's my experience of it. My niece is G&T. she was tested in maths, reading, comprehension, reading music and is a brilliant gymnast - she's 7 by the way

How do they KNOW your niece, at the age of 7 is G+t. What tests did they use to specifically label her G+T in these areas?

I think this issue is odd tbh.
If a child needs extra help or support - regardless of why - then I can understand a parent seeking that out. But to be interested in an arbitary label n order to trigger additional support seems odd to me.

I genuinely have children at either end of the spectrum. One son has SN associated with severe ASD and his school meets his needs. My other son is exceptionally bright and was poorly served by his school , and his parents, until he went to his independent grammar school.
His prep school tested him and his classmates upon arrival and he hit level 5 across the board ( which apparently is very good). When he left at 11 he had just done the same sats again and scored level 5 .

He was terrified thatthe super bright part of his brain was linked with ASD and was bullied for being bright and hated the notice people took of his academic ability. He was a gifted rugby player and sportsman and he hated being placed in the 'gifted' box.

He has sorted through these issues and has just gained 6A*s and 4As at GCSE - very nice but not exceptional.
I would not class him as gifted but very bright and I think withthe best of intentions his needs were never met - much cleverer children must struggle even more.
But he loves his friends, his rugby, has a wide range of interests and is doing fine. So for me it is the perfect outcome.

I am now not quite sure what point i was trying to make other than sometimes placing children in certain boxes is not ultimately in their best interests and when truly gifted children are bright enough to manipulate and conceal their intelligence , picking 10% to stick a label on seems to me a somewhat nonsensical, if well meaning, policy

Yes, it's nonsensical to just stick a label on and forget about it. The DCSF describes in great detail what needs to be done after identification. And schools that do bother to follow through end up raising standards across the board and encouraging all children to strive for excellence. There are huge overall school gains from proper implementation of G&T.

BTW, if someone's getting bullied for being bright the obvious problem that needs to be addressed is the bullying, not the being bright

DadAtLarge:
It's sad to read how the state school failed your DS.
But I can't help thinking that it's limited experience; your DS, your school. I don't see how you can generalise for how G&T identification gets implemented at all schools in England based on such a small sample.

Umm
DAL - I have to say your BTW is pretty much stating the bleeding obvious.
Of course bullying is nothing to do with the 'reason' chosen by the bullies. But I was describing my sons point of view. He was 8 - they blame themselves, so he worried about what he had done to attract their notice. Its what children do.
The bullying was dealt with. We addressed it imediately and the school acted as soon as they were aware and dealt with it effectively. There was no reoccurence.
But DS1 had made the connection between standing out and being picked on. It just took a while to undo that.
Having a brother with SN added to his sense that being below the radar was a good thing.

What makes you think that's my only sample? Not by a very long shot. I'm not here to boast about how much I know - I've done very extensive research and spoken to lots of people - but I do know more about G&T than most teachers (and many LTs) do.

mussyhillmum

ODDLY - i moved my dd to a catholic primary school which at the time was 9th in the country in the league tables

she had been 'coasting' in her primary school which also had 'split year groups' and she is early october birthday which made her the oldest in the class with a sometimes 2 year differential.

when she moved to the 'super' high performing school they thought she was great and she settled immediately right at the top

this taught me that although the non G and T ranking - non pushy school appeared to be slack - infact it was quite good at teaching - just not pushy with it

having said that the new school did STRETCH dd more and she was much happier

I'm with mussyhillmum and GoppingOtter - another one seething with frustration - at DS (age 7) not being taught any new maths!

Have begun doing maths with him at home and he is lapping it up - asking for maths tests (his favourite thing at school, sadly for him all too rare).

I am angry that he has to spend time at home doing what he should be doing at school - what a waste of the time at school.

I prefer V & T personally.

How did you do your research, DAL, how many and what kind of people have you interviewed about G&T programmes?

I don't know what you're trying to get at, lljkk, but I suspect you'll end up disappointed (?) if I did take the time to list all I've done. More than one LT has consulted with me and the local LA has modified their LAQS on my recommendations. Some of my posts in the G&T section on MN may give you an idea of just how much of work I've done in this area and how many schools and teachers I've spoken with. I'm the only parent in the county who got an invite to the last (G&T) regional conference.

Is there anyone else like englishpatient frustrated by teachers not recognising just what their DC was capable of? Perhaps giving them reading books well below their ability, or maths homework that they could have done with their eyes shut?

DadAtLarge - what county are you in?

Just interested DaL - How do you think we should identify 'gifted' between the ages of 5 and 7, taking into account the differences in rates of development at that age? (Not talking exceptional here - just 'gifted' as decreed by the DSCF).

DadAtLarge - just re-read one of your posts above. You mention extra resources for your DS at school - what exactly do you mean? Is this funding for extra help in some way? It is my understanding that no LA money is ringfenced for G&T and so in practice it doesn't get any. In fact my DH was told by our LA that "there's no extra money for G&T and if there was any, it would go into secondary". You have raised my hopes!

What is an LT and what is an LAQ?
I'd be happy if you just gave an estimate of how many schools and teachers you've spoken to about G&T treatment.
I'd just like some sources for the things you say, is that so unfair to ask?

For instance:
"Most children who qualify for G&T don't get put on the G&T register. And for those who are the fact is often kept secret and parents are not informed (contrary to the advice from the DCSF)."

How can you be so sure that 'most' parents aren't informed, for instance?

Agree that it's a tricky one. At age 7 I had a reading age of 14, but because it wasn't nurtured (the school had no books above age 11-12 and I was told to teach other kids in my class to read) my progress quickly diminished.

Who knows what could have happened if I had been "labelled" as G&T? I could have had my interest in things stimulated and gone on to University (instead of being bored and dropping my standard of work to the minimum) or could have been embarrassed by it and done nothing different to what actually happened. Who knows?

trickerg, you seem to genuinely feel it's difficult making early identification. And I agree with you in that it's less easy in R with the children's underdeveloped skills. Also you likely don't have formal training in the trickier assessment of "potential" and "ability" rather than achievement and knowledge. But the DCSF says it needs to be done. I'd dump your dilemma in your G&T coordinator's lap. She's getting the points and the cash, ain't she? And if she needs help she can approach the LT (Leading Teacher) or the LA (Local Authority) for assistance. But one good start is to speak to parents about what they feel their DC's abilities are and why ... and don't take all of it with a pinch of salt.

LAQS = Local Authority Quality Standards

englishpatient, I don't want to get your hopes up too much as funding really is a joke. There are ways around it though. TA or teacher time can be allocated to your DC out of the personalisation budget. There is also the possibility of getting the SENCO involved. Schools can buy specialist software etc., out of normal budgets (it will be useful for other children later on). And there are various G&T grants etc., that you can apply for. Small amounts - like £500 - are offered to schools in various areas. And larger sums - circa £10K - are offered to schools to run G&T summer schools and things like that. But part of the reason DS's school is doing so much for him is maybe because I do so much for the school.

What county are you in englishpatient?

lljkk, I've got a family stocked to the gills with teachers / heads / deputies who teach in different parts of the country. I've spoken with numerous others on forums like this and in person. I now know the person in charge of G&T in this LA well and have a very clear picture of county-wide implementation, which schools do what, which ones pay lip-service etc. But with regard the specific claim about parents not being informed - you don't need to go very far. Set aside a few hours and browse through all the threads in the G&T section here on MN. With regards the claim that most don't get on the register, it's simple. Have a look at the national figures. If 10% of children should be on the register for a given subject and less than 1% are on the register then most children who qualify are not being put on the register. Ask your own school for a copy of their last census and see how many are listed as G&T.

Still would like your ideas about what constitutes a 5-7 year old gifted child. What assessments do you think we should use to, for instance, mark the child gifted in writing or reading? (Remember, I'm not talking eceptional - that's different.)

DadAtLarge, I'm in Shropshire. You didn't tell me which county you are in!

When DS was in yr 1 his teacher was able to tell us the NC levels for him - surely that gives some idea of whether a child is "gifted" - or whatever other term is preferred.

You're thinking too much along the lines of standard assessments. Think IQ tests rather than KS1 papers. Of course, at this age any intelligence test needs to be conducted by an appropriately qualified psychologist. But teachers can possibly use some of these tests as a rough guide. I've got other ideas but maybe I'll start a thread for them sometime.

I would prefer if the system replaced baseline assessment, I don't believe it serves the top 10% well.

That was for trickerg.

englishpatient, I'm in one of the counties in the SouthEast. I don't know that much about G&T implementation specific to Shropshire, but their website doesn't impress me - they seem to be very, very out of date on G&T

I believe over 30% of primary schools in Shropshire don't identify any G&T pupils for the register.

I agree that you can't use KS1 papers, as they do not demonstrate whether a child is gifted. (Last year we had a strong cohort of readers coming up from Y1, but many of their peers had caught up and passed them by the end of the year.) We are NOT ALLOWED to adminster psychological tests. We don't have the training to analyse the results, and therefore would not be able to report to parents.

You will, no doubt, suggest the ed psych. We have 2 visits per term for a school of 350 children, 30% of whom are on the SEN register, with about 6 EBD children waiting for attention. Therefore a quick psych test for G+T is out of the question.

The only option would be for a private consultation, which would cost parents £200-300.

This is why Gifted identification for 5-7 year olds is very difficult.