DS2 made to fish bottle out of school toilet as punishment

[citylover]

DS2 is in year 2 and he and a friend put a plastic bottle down the toilet, think his friend then went to the toilet, other kids told on them and they were rightly called to account.

As punishment they were made to fish said bottle out of loo (with latex gloves on).

I am really uncomfortable with this type of punishment and have made my concerns known.

In addition my DS has quite serious anxiety issues around using school toilets which I have been trying to overcome over the past few months. The school are aware of these.

My family, and a childless friend think this punishment is fine ("well he won't do it again will he") which made me think perhaps IABU.

However my gut feeling is it isn't the right way of handling it and crosses a line.

He is generally a well behaved child at school - his teacher confirmed this the other night.

[policywonk]

YV - sorry, you're right that most of the posters have been quite reasonable. I got riled at the small number who weren't!

[citylover]

Can't resist coming back not least because I am off sick this week and not allowed to talk to anyone because I have got laryngitis.

The overshooting the toilet thing was DS1 and I said to the head (who had assumed it was deliberate until he knew otherwise that he could have made him clear it up).

DS2 does still have the 'poo problem' as he calls it btw. It started when he got out of sync with his movements and then got very anxious about the fact he might need to poo at school but wouldn't want to.

To me cleaning up wee and putting hand down toilet are two different things. Perhaps being married to my OCD exH for many years some of his neuroses rubbed off on me it's quite possible.

The school is great on the whole but I have found, along with some other parents that they do sometimes make small issues really big. But that't the subject of another thread.

[ihatebikerides]

I don't think any of this means that the OP's son will turn out to be a thug. But I agree that there is an attitude prevalent in some these days, usually prefaced by "I know he's no angel, but...." that punishments are for other people's children.

[theyoungvisiter]

Policywonk, maybe I am reading this thread differently to you but I don't think that has been the intention of most of the posters (to critise CL's parenting I mean).

All they've come on to do is defend the school - not criticise Citylover's DS. And in order to do that, they needed to explain why they thought the school's stance was a reasonable one, and why the punishment was effective and thoughtful.

I think the school's punishment was reasonable - but I would never suggest that if citylover had dealt with the situation differently in her own home that would result in a monster child. I'm sure there are plenty of other ways of dealing with the situation. But just because there are other possible solutions, doesn't mean the school was wrong, which is what Citylover originally suggested.

[ReallyTired]

All children do daft things. Making mistakes and less than sensible decisions is part of growning up. It does not mean the OP's son is a thug.

Children arem't born lazy or spoilt. Its their enviromnent that makes them into what they are.

I think its sad if children see the caretaker or the cleaners as beneath them. Why should support staff be treated so badly.

I am in favour of children doing a bit of the school cleaning. The children assist the caretaker at the school I work at. Its a lesson called lifeskills and they are taught basic skills like how to manage money, mop a floor, recycling rubbish, use a washing machine, put together flat pack furniture, decorating and a million other things. I think its a petty that mainstream children aren't taught life skills.

[VeniVidiVickiQV]

No, agree that such an instance will not necessarily lead to thuggery later in life. But, in some cases it could be the thin end of the wedge.

I wouldnt expect teachers to be able to discern which children were more likely to turn to thugs than others. I would expect them to treat each situation on its own merits, and without prejudice.

Therefore, if such an incident occurred, they'd deal with it at face value, and not judge a child's previous behaviour, or prospective behaviour in order to determine how best to deal with it.

[foxythesnowfox]

I don't really understand why you suggested to the head that he clean up his wee when he had an accident and overshot, but now say its not OK to clear up after himself when he did something intentionally.

I'd be more annoyed he got told off for having the accident myself.

[cory]

Not all of us have put this in the context of thuggery, citylover. Many of us have simply pointed out that 7 is a good age to start to take the consequences of your actions and that this does not seem like a harsh or inappropriate punishment to us. My son is only a few months older than yours and I would expect him to do it. And so would he.

Asking somebody to pick up something they threw in the wrong place hardly equals demonisation of young people IMO. Rather it takes the positive view that children can be expected to understand that they need to take the consequences of their actions. We didn't want him hanged, drawn and quartered; in fact, Veni and I specifically said that we could understand how children play with boundaries. And since he took the punishment calmly, it seems he did indeed understand the consequences and it hasn't done him any harm.

I understand that you were worried about his toilet problems at the time, but if he feels confident enough to be in there playing around, then that's hardly likely to be a problem now, is it? I think you are projecting your own concerns from the past onto him now and that is probably not the best thing for him.

I also think it is worrying when you get youngsters like the ones in Martianbishop's school refusing to pick up their own litter "because it's the cleaner's job". Surely you feel happier that he got on with it and didn't say that?

[citylover]

ps should be placed solely at the door

[citylover]

I was gutted that it went out of view cos it meant I had to buy a new one and was in a difficult position at work for the rest of the day.

DS2 is a young just 7 year old, rarely in trouble. Does have an genuine anxiety around the school loo which a couple of months ago was causing him to not want to go to school and causing him to be abnormally clingy when I dropped him off. I had to work very hard to work out a way of dealing with it and it is more or less cracked.

I think what he and his friend decided to do was a split second moment of stupidness rather than pre meditated thuggery.

You will be pleased to hear that he doesn't seem fazed by it at all. I don't think being present in the loos and having a fear of actually using them are necessarily linked btw.

It's all a bit knee jerk and reactionary really isn't it which I know you get on mumsnet due to the 'one dimensionalness'.

FWIW, if we're talking about it I don't think all the ills of society can be placed at the door of not facing the consequences of actions - it is far more wide reaching that that.

eg poverty, divide between rich and poor, breakdown of extended family, UK work culture, Thatcher and the greed of the 90's, demonisation of teenagers, the media, UK attitude to children in general, lack of genuine support for parenting and so on!!

I think that's my last post here. Perhaps it will rumble on.

[citylover]

The mooncup disappeared from view otherwise I would have got it out of course.!! Would not have left it floating in the toilet.

[bogie]

Yabu he put it there so why should someone else have to take it out?

[mrz]

I don't think the common expectation of a child to remove something he has placed somewhere he shouldn't is demonising (or punishing) the child rather it's teaching good behaviour and self control.

The Foundation stage curriculum for 4 and 5 year olds has the expectations of

Understanding what is right, what is wrong and why
and
Considering the consequences of their words and actions for themselves and others

[policywonk]

That's a fair point VVV. On the flipside, however, it's possible to argue that OBM's DS is lovely because of her non-punitive parenting style (at least in part).

I think what annoys me about this thread is the general assumption that there's really only one way to skin a cat, and that the OP MUST be creating a monster. The self-righteousness has been quite unpleasant.

[cory]

VeniVidi puts that very well. I don't think there is anything totally shocking in a 7yo experimenting with boundaries, but that is the appropriate time to let them learn the consequences. An 11yo who still thinks that grownups are there to sort out their experiments will be a lot less socially acceptable. 7 is a good age to learn.

[ScottishMummy]

he put it there his responsibility to get out out.actions have consequences.

[janeashersbookofspacecakes]

Well done the school.

[VeniVidiVickiQV]

LOL MB.

I'm sure OBM's DS is perfectly lovely - I certainly wasn't speculating on that.

It's hard to say if all children would do such a thing if all childrens parenting was identical. I think some children are pre-disposed to "experimenting with boundaries" and some arent. Those that are more likely to see what happens when they shoved a bottle down the toilet are probably the ones that need to be made aware that it's not acceptable to do so, and have to see the "conclusion" to their "experiment" to be able to fully appreciate the consequence of their actions. I would imagine that those who are less likely to experiment probably have more foresight or awareness of consequences in the first place and thus dont need consequences to be demonstrated.

[Blandmum]

Out of interest I just asked ds (8) who he thought should pick out the bottle. he said the person who put the bottle in the loo.

But only after he told me that he shouldn't have to, as he was innocent

[cory]

We have ascertained that the OP does not think that the teacher should have picked up the bottle

And it is clear that she does not think her son should have

She has not actually spelled out in so many words who should pick up the bottle

As others have pointed out, leaving it until the cleaner came in would have meant that the bottle was left to trouble other children throughout the day. Which might not have helped any toilet issues they may have.

Any issue about hygiene would have been resolved by the latex glove- besides, there is no evidence that cleaners are immune to problems resulting from unhygienic procedures.

I would have been happy to hear that my son had been made to do the picking up, less happy if I had heard the bottle had been left around.

Doesn't seem to be about punishment so much as about clearing up the trouble you have caused. I don't think 7 is so very young (ds just turned 8 and definitely agrees that whoever did it should pick it up).

[MummyDoIt]

"It is not pleasant to put one's hand into piss. But whereas for an adult, it is (I really do acknowledge) disgusting, for a young child it might (and again, I acknowledge that this is a possibility, not a certainty) be disgusting, humiliating, even traumatizing."

I think using the word 'traumatizing' is going way too far. Trauma is when you're involved in a serious accident, witness something horrific, suffer abuse or suffer some terrible tragedy. By no stretch of the imagination should it be applied to a naughty child being made to face the consequences of his bad behaviour.

[stitch]

to the op.
who does she expect to come along and fish the bottle out then?
the cleaner?
the teaching staff?
or does she expect the bottle to miraculously demateirialise (sp?)

[onebatmother]

It doesn't feel as though this is a 'general discussion about social responsibility'. It feels like a discussion about how "this is exactly the problem we're all up against in society."

Anyway, I'm retiring.

[unknownrebelbang]

I too think he has got over his anxiety issues around toilets, given that he was playing around in there.

Citylover said she would expect the cleaner/caretaker to fish it out I think, and to apologise to them.

In our school the cleaner comes in after school, and the caretaker does a couple of hours a week.

I'm intrigued about who retrieved the mooncup.

[STD]

ihate - she thinks the caretaker or cleaner should have fished it out and her ds should have apologised.

As MrsW says not all schools have a caretaker there all day and the cleaners generally come after school.