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Primary education

SATS KS1 Maths in particular

107 replies

Jim999 · 14/02/2018 01:53

TEST

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sirfredfredgeorge · 15/03/2018 08:37

ScreamLikeYouMeanIt No column method taught in year two here, and it looks like it's a year 3 aim in the curriculum gov site, so I wouldn't be sure that the school has necessarily has taught it.

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Julraj · 15/03/2018 09:58

How children should attempt to tackle mathematical problems (i.e. their method) is now formally mandated in the curriculum these days. I know the national curriculum isn't the most accessible document in the world, but it's all there.

Failing that, get a Study Book like one of these

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Feenie · 15/03/2018 10:25

It isn't formally mandated in the slightest, julraj - particularly for the point just raised - we don't use column methods in Y2 either, for example. Schools are free to teach the methods they deem suitable, which varies from school to school, as several posters have already made very clear.

Again, the best advice to ask to see the individual school's calculation policy, which is the only way of finding out about that particular school's methods of teaching in Y2 or any other year group.

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ScreamLikeYouMeanIt · 15/03/2018 19:31

Sirfredfredgeorge How would your children solve the larger addition/subtraction calculations in the Y2 arithmetic test, the ones where there are marks for showing your working? I'm not a massive fan of column method as I think it can encourage laziness and doesn't help their number sense but it does have limited room in a KS1 curriculum.

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sirfredfredgeorge · 15/03/2018 20:09

She just does what I believe is called partitioning, and has no problem doing it with any size number purely in her head. Showing partitioning working would also get you the mark I'm sure (not that there are marks for working unless you get it wrong of course AIUI)

She can also use partitioning to answer 6/7 digit additions, so I'm not sure a column addition is ever really required, although obviously if you're partitioning in your head you need very good working memory, and if you're doing it on paper then it's more laborious than column method.

I do think maths as mostly a mental activity is good so you gain an understanding rather than simply learning methods and tricks.

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Feenie · 15/03/2018 20:10

Mine would have drawn diennes.

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sirfredfredgeorge · 15/03/2018 20:15

Mine would have drawn diennes

I certainly believe they've had other methods taught, but never column, so it's quite likely, DD is pretty accomplished at straight mental arithmetic.

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user789653241 · 15/03/2018 20:19

Same at my ds's school. They don't teach column methods until ks2, and ask parents not to teach them.

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Feenie · 15/03/2018 20:21

Yes, not all would need to and would solve them mentally.

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Jim999 · 02/04/2018 02:08

Hi all, so much to tell and so much learnt in a very short space of time. Again I have no commercial ties to IXL but it’s been a real help…see the very end of this post 

It at least gave us some sort of a start point and surprisingly by going through it I now am beginning to get my head around ‘new maths’ and where they seem to be coming from and I do actually see what they are trying to achieve. What however I do have an issue with is a comment that somebody posted about the school asking them not to show their their child how to do things a different way….. sorry that ain’t gonna happen. I fully appreciate that schools need to teach all pupils but if my grand daughter is becoming bored and disinterested then I’ll show her anyway. Are we really supposed to just trust that everything is OK? Look up a documentary called ‘Waiting for Superman’.

Anyway old man rant over so the good news. DGD, (see I’m getting the acronym thingy), is nowhere near in such a pickle as it first appeared. In the space of 3 or 4 weeks we have managed to go over about 70% of all the basics she ‘should’ know and she’s OK with pretty much all of it. The 30% that’s left I reckon will be 10% also no problem and the other 20% just a little help. One thing that was clear is she has not been taught column method of addition and subtraction which now includes what they call regrouping but at least she can still get the right answer even if to me it still seems like a bit long winded. Again I can only use IXL as a frame of reference but because it’s structured into clear areas of competency then it has been pretty easy to tell what she is competent at and where she needs a little help. Again I must stress that it doesn’t have to be IXL just something that gives you an idea of what the core knowledge areas are.

So, the bottom line is it has been a real eye opener for me. I may have made some disparaging remarks in previous posts about how teachers are supposed to teach 30 or so kids of different abilities which I apologise for but seriously do we let our kids all go as fast as they can or just as fast as the slowest? (Again ‘Waiting for Superman’ – and it’s nothing to do with comics!).

Anyway the other upside has been that since DGD started doing this then DGS, (who is 3 and a bit), wants to have a go every time she gets her laptop out. Had to buy him one to stop any arguments, (40 quid off a well known website but it does the job). So last week DDIL (dear daughter in law), gets a pull from one of his ‘pre-school’ or ‘day care’ helpers or whatever who asked if they could have a word in private……what they actually asked her was ‘Are you or your husband particularly gifted at maths because James seems to be exceptionally good for his age?’ Now I have to be totally honest and admit that we have been focussing on DGD and have spent very little time with James but for someone to notice that difference in such a short space of time is amazing.

I know we are all busy but a few minutes each day seemingly can make all the difference……..keep it fun, reward them but not every time – once every so often out of the blue is better than just getting into a routine, know when enough is enough, know when like everybody else there are just some days when they just don’t feel like it, FINALLY to address some of the negatives about learning programmes ‘not teaching’ them of course they don’t – but please don’t tell me you cannot help your child do Maths or English homework…….there was a post on this thread about using pizzas to teach kids fractions…..I did this 30 years ago with mine but pizzas were a bit expensive so I used cheap round Victoria sponge cakes from the shop across the road.


All the best..

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Jim999 · 02/04/2018 02:19

And don't be afraid to take control ..... they are sponges

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Jim999 · 02/04/2018 02:19

...not the cakes the children

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Jim999 · 02/04/2018 02:24

...I'm not suggesting some sort of actual vindictiveness against Victoria sponges

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Jim999 · 02/04/2018 02:36

Hi this has really got me fascinated and saw the post from Sir FredFredGeorge which mentioned 'methods and tricks'. In my last post mentioned that there does seem to be a 'method in madness' about 'new maths' and one thing, (among many), I came across was 'counting doubles'. Now for some reason I just know that 2 2's are 4, 2 9's are 18 and so on and so on, funny thing is I don't ever remember when I was taught that.... Plus ca change, plus la meme chose as they say in Spain

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Jim999 · 02/04/2018 02:41

Hi would you not just know that 5 8's are 40 so it's 8?

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user789653241 · 02/04/2018 08:01

Mastery is the goal for NC now. This is what to be expected(mastery) and above expected(mastery with greater depth) for maths in yr2. Have a look if you are interested.

www.ncetm.org.uk/public/files/23305581/Mastery_Assessment_Y2_Low_Res.pdf

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user789653241 · 02/04/2018 08:04

Oops, it some how go to yr3 one. This should be right.

www.ncetm.org.uk/public/files/23305579/Mastery_Assessment_Y2_Low_Res.pdf

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TeenTimesTwo · 04/04/2018 15:36

OP. I haven't read the whole thread in detail, but I spotted you are talking about column methods.

As and when your DGD is ready for them, you may find using money really helpful for introducing this. Stockpile some 1p 10p and £1 coins.
Talk about how if you have more than 10 1p pieces then you have to 'go to the bank' and change them for a 10p piece, and show how that is reflected in the paper based method.
I find it woks well.

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Jim999 · 04/04/2018 17:43

Hi, that's a really good idea and something I've already got planned. I've also got to check she is OK with 'Imperial' measurement units (don't mention the B**t word) but I'm into DIY so have lots of old style rulers and things to demonstrate what feet and inches are.
As before 2 months ago I had no idea how to help her or know if she even needed help but she is doing fine and we all have a clearer idea of what the expectations of what she should know and where she should be.
I think I can see now why so many parents are frustrated because they feel like they cannot help their children out but I've realised that it is just a far more 'fluid' way of teaching maths and I honestly now have to say I don't disagree with it .....however.
On the downside how could I, as a grandparent, know that my grandchildren could 'just get along' when I know I can be of help? As I said before as long as my grandchildren see it as fun and a challenge then I will teach them anything I possibly can, (sometimes even if they don't see it as fun, that's called life....) and it's my job to make it fun, usually with some sort of incentive of some sort at the end.

Anyway, see times tables are making a comeback......that will make a change from 'I Spy' in the car :-)

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Jim999 · 04/04/2018 17:49

Thanks for the link, really useful to know just what that 'next step' is and that you 'shouldn't be teaching them that' if you know what I mean is not true. It again goes back right to the original point of the thread that there seems to be so many people out there who have no idea what or how their children are being taught and clearly some fantastic educators out there who can produce papers like this cannot get this across to parents.

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Jim999 · 04/04/2018 17:51

My DBW (TLA again) tells me there is a programme coming on TV very soon where the mums and dads go 'back to school' - will be watching with great interest............

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user789653241 · 04/04/2018 17:59

It's not really what you should be/shouldn't be teaching. They have come up with better ways to teach someone who struggles. So, I don't agree with "you shouldn't teach column methods in ks1", but for majority, it works well. And for those who are able, knowing alternative methods do no harm and expand their understanding imo.

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Jim999 · 04/04/2018 18:04

Hi TeenTimesTwo

This is probably one of the biggest contentious points. When I was in primary school we were taught the 'one from the top, one from the bottom method). This now in hindsight after recent experience may not have been the best but at least we ALWAYS got the correct answer, (the understanding came later which I'm sure is very much like the 'V' method).

Anyway, since I've been getting involved in this was speaking to a colleague in work a couple of weeks ago who asked out of the blue 'Can you explain this to me then?' to which I immediatly replied.....'What, if there is a zero in the top line?'
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She said.......
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How did you know I was going to ask you that?
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Confuse a child......

1000000000000000003

  • 7

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steppemum · 04/04/2018 18:05

The school will have apolicy as to how they teach things.
They will also teach a variety of ways. This is not weird new maths, but is actually always how maths has been taught. Eg with subtraction,

31 - 25
you can start at 25 and count on to 31. You can use a number line and count back from 31 to 25. You can say 25 plus 5 gets to 30 (the nearest round number) plus 1 more for 31. You can write it down and do it as a column subtraction.

But doing all of these we teach kids about numbers. and about number concepts instead of just teaching them a formula.

The calculations policy is often printed as a booklet available for parents so that they can see how it is being taught and follow it at home. You can ask the school for it. If they do not have it available, ask the teacher there is a method you can follow for particular things.

You have said KS1 maths in your title, do you mean KS1? So your granddaughter is in year 2?

One thing is always to ask her how they do it, and get her to teach you. If she cannot even begin any of the worksheet, then it is too hard, and that is the messgwe that you need to send back to school.

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steppemum · 04/04/2018 18:11

oh sorry, I seem to have missed a page or two and you have moved on.

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