Phonics experts - come talk to me!!

[Babypythagorus]

I'm new to primary (background in secondary) and there seem to be some very well informed ppl on here!

My school currently uses thoroughly mixed methods to teach reading, with incredibly old Ginn reading books. We are investing in ORT, and I wonder if any of you can tell me:

• where is the research often quoted on here that solely teaching SSP will ensure a higher % kids learn to read? The Rose report is often cited, but I can't find that particular bit in it.
  

• How does ORT work, in class and at home? Their website is impenetrable...
  

• which ORT sets are fully decodable? (And, for that matter, what does that phrase mean?! Surely all books are at some point?)
  

And lastly;

• what would you recommend I read to learn about this?!
  

Thanks phonics pros :)

[Norestformrz]

I used Jolly Phonics for about twenty years (there really wasn’t anything else at the start) and found it works really well in reception but peters out in Key Stage 1 with not enough guidance for teachers (and only coverage of a few alternative ways to spell the sounds) so relied heavily on teacher knowledge.

We use Dandelion launchers and readers as our main scheme (that gives us seven books for each unit we teach if needed) and in the early units we also have the Sounds Write books. In addition to this we have Songbirds, Rapid Phonics, Phonics Bugs, project X phonics, Reading with phonics, Magic Belt, Talisman, Totem, Titans Gauntlet, Rescue, Alba, Moon Dog and Amber Guardian books for children who needs more reinforcement. We did have Floppys phonics and Bug Club but no longer use these.

[Babypythagorus]

Which schemes do you like that have several books?

We use jolly phonics and aren't looking to change that...

[Norestformrz]

Book 1 Level 1 and book 1 Level 1+ don’t cover the same set of sounds so you only have one book for each set

[cantkeepawayforever]

A model I have seen work well is a main set of 'spine' readers and then things like Songbirds used to 'pad out' the books at each level, because they're available more cheaply and so can give variety at lower cost than investing in more of the 'spine' books, if that makes sense? I would agree that Songbirds on their own have too few books at each step to provide the 'only reading scheme'.

Their main use is as 1:1 in class and home readers, rather than 'teaching from the books' in class, if that makes sense?

[Norestformrz]

We use them as class 1-1 and home readers.

[HarveySchlumpfenburger]

they've added 'More songbirds' packs at levels 1+ to 4 so there are 12 per level.

The second set of books at each level revises all the sounds at that level though. So you still have the issue of only having one title for introducing a sound or set of sounds.

[Norestformrz]

Songbirds have Six books at level 1 and six at level 1+

[Babypythagorus]

Songbirds have 12 at levels 1-4, I think?

Do you use them in class or as home readers? Or both?

[Norestformrz]

One book for each set of sounds isn’t enough (having 36 copies of the same books isn’t necessary).

[HarveySchlumpfenburger]

phonics bug or Dandelion launchers/readers might be cheaper than RWI.

You could also link the teaching to the scheme, since they are very finely levelled and clearly sequenced, rather than having to try and link books to existing progression.

You won't necessarily need a whole class set of each book. If you have enough individual titles at each level then you have plenty of books for lots of children to be on the same level and children who need more practice will have a range of books rather than being stuck with the same 6.

[Norestformrz]

Songbirds are great but again only offer six books at each level. I’d highly recommend as a supplement to a main scheme.

[Balfe]

Is there someone from a local school who gets very good Phonics check score

No phonics check in Scotland.

At my Scottish school, we used our PEF money for Songbirds (from the Book People as someone said) and for Dandelion Launchers, which are fab. I am inherently suspicious of reps.

How big is your average intake? We have 2 classes at each stage and went for 10 copies of each individual book. We only change books once a week because we have no classroom assistant.

PT is currently investigating an online resource (Bug Club possibly) for those who want extra home reading.

[cantkeepawayforever]

One cheap way of getting LOTS of copies of early decodeable books (when lots of children are at the starting out stage and all the children need books at a very similar level) is simply to buy LOTS of discounted Songbirds packs from somewhere like the Book People.

In fact, if you know what you are doing, you can often get quite a lot of the basic Phonics ranges via a similar route. Obviously it gives you lots of copies of the same book, which isn't ideal as children mopve on but may need lots of practice at a particular stage, but can be great initially.

What you do need, though, is someone who knows what they are doing to tie them together and then link them tightly in with the phonics teaching and progression - and that will be someone who teaches Phonics well, not a book company rep. Is there someone from a local school who gets very good Phonics check scores (it's entirely possible to get 100%, or high 90%s, year after year if you teach Phonics really well, regardless of intake) who might be able to help you?

For an 'all in one off the shelf programme', I believe RWI is good, though it is obviously quite expensive.

[Babypythagorus]

She recommended the biff ones, but we've swapped them out for fully decodable ones at the early levels and some of the more modern ones higher up. Am now worrying about if we've got enough! How many would you need? I guess you don't need whole class sets of them all, do you? Just some for class work and lots of individual ones for home reading?

[Norestformrz]

Can I ask which books the rep is recommending? All to often the reps are clueless

[HarveySchlumpfenburger]

6 books at each level is nowhere near enough.

Does it have to be ORT that you invest in, or do you have scope for looking elsewhere?

[Anotheroneishere]

Six titles at each level won't get you very far. Consider that an average child in P1 would finish P1 at level 3. There would then be a total of 18 books for them to read the entire year. That's less than one per week.

[Babypythagorus]

Yes, we've got our area rep who constructed our starter quote and is booked in for a training session. The set up pack they've suggested has 6 titles at each level from 1-11, this is for primary 1-4 (we're in Scotland, thats R to y3).

[Anotheroneishere]

Babypythagorus, have you as a school approached ORT with these questions? They have a vested interest in your success, and while asking the supplier isn't going to get you unbiased advice, it will at least get you professional advice.

How many books you need will depend on what years you are buying for, how many children you have, and how often you expect to send the books home and read the books in school. Consider how many books per stage you expect a below average reception child to need in order to sufficiently practice the sounds without memorizing books. It would indeed surprise me if ORT has a sufficient number of lower level books to be the sole reading scheme at a school.

Does your school have a training budget? Bringing in an expert would be a great choice.

[Babypythagorus]

The ORT quote we've had for a starter pack gives one class pack of 6 titles for each level - is that enough? Or will we need more?

[Norestformrz]

As I said the problem I have with ORT is that there aren’t enough books to ensure pupils are secure in their phonic skills. I think Songbirds are great but they just don’t work as the only scheme but work well alongside others.

[HarveySchlumpfenburger]

I think OUP have helpfully added phonics/decodeable to their descriptions of a number of schemes which aren't really. 'Fully decodable in line with letters and sounds' seems to be the phrase you need to look for in order to work out which ones are decodeable.

Snapdragons and glowworms aren't unless they have rewritten them.

[Feenie]

For the lower levels, in general, Songbirds, Floppy's Phonics, Decode and Develop, Snapdragons, and Glowworms are decodable.

If you read the small print, Decode and Develop are only 60% decodable and are definitely misnamed, if you ask me - I know of two local schools who use them and think they are offering decodable readers.

[HarveySchlumpfenburger]

Actually, I'd be a bit careful with the decode and develop ORT books. I don't think they are very decodeable in the early stages. They are just more decodeable than the original books.

Floppy' Phonics, Traditional Tales, Alien Adventures and Songbirds are definitely decodeable in the proper sense. The first three follow the order of Letters and Sounds.

[Grumpbum]

not remotely an expert but our School used Dandelion Launchers/readers initially which I thought were excellent