how easy is it to covert to Catholicism?

[giddywithglee]

this is a long one, sorry!

3 years ago they restructured the education system in our town. This meant that the school that is on our road, that I had always assumed my children would go to, became completely oversubscribed with siblings, to the point that this year they had to take 37 children into the reception class to accommodate all the siblings (if anyone who knows me can identify me from this please don't give me away!).

Anyway, my son started reception this year, and obviously couldn't get into that school. My first choice was the school he was at nursery at, but he didn't get offered it on allocations day (unsurprising as it's over a km away as the crow flies so plenty of kids in between - our town has a lot of people packed into a small geographical area). But we were offered a place at the Catholic school which is also on our road and Ofsted outstanding, and which has historically been ridiculously hard to get into. We were delighted, accepted and took our son off continued interest for our other choices. He has settled in really well, made loads of friends and is very happy.

BUT I've got nursery applications coming up for DS2, which has made me look at their admissions policy, and I've realised that siblings of non-Catholic children already in the school come way down the pecking order below Catholic non-siblings who live out-of-town. So now I'm panicking (not about nursery, but Reception when the time comes).

There doesn't seem to be any way of finding out if the lower take-up of places by Catholic children this year is a blip or part of a continuing trend, so now I've got massive uncertainty about whether DS2 will get a place when the time comes, which means that I'm now faced with the very real possibility of my children going to different schools.

I've been trying to work out what I can do, and the way I see it I've got 3 options:

1. Wait and see. Apply to the Catholic school and the nearest school (which ironically will have resolved its siblings issue by then) and potentially have the children at different schools.
   
2. Convert to Catholicism. I'm christened CofE but my kids aren't. My FIL is Catholic and my mum's massive Irish side of the family is too, so it's not entirely alien to us and not something I'm completely opposed to. It just feels a bit drastic (although talking to a lot of the mums in the playground I gather that I would not be in the minority for doing this!).
   
3. Put DS1 on the waiting list for the next nearest school which is only a 10 minute walk away, and see if he gets a place before I do the Reception application for DS2 (in which case sibling rule applies).
   

I know it's not the end of the world for them to be in different schools but they're really close, and I hate the thought of them not having shared school memories, no combined school photos, no DS1 looking out for his baby bro in the playground...

Anyway, what would you do in my position? It's daft but it's making me really anxious and I keep changing my mind about what to do!

[Buttercupsandaisies]

I mean that they won't necessarily need to make the elder child Catholic (currently he isn't). If that child joins in the communion workshops at age 9 with the rest of his current class, then he may then be automatically considered Catholic for admission purposes. As my dn did.

[rosesarered9]

Buttercupsandaisies - "This may be an option for the elder child if they undergo communion preparation." When we were applying for a secondary school for DS, all the school needed was the priest's/vicar's/minister's signature and the church stamp . It is a heavily oversubscribed school (about 1000 applications for 180 places each year), so for other schools it must should be quite easy to get into on religious grounds.

[Buttercupsandaisies]

I am cofe and dh is RC. We had both dc baptized Catholic at age 4&2. No evidence of dh baptism was supplied and no issue with kids ages at baptism.

School asked purely that child was baptised before application date, nothing about parents, attending church etc etc so check school as I don't know any RC schools near my which stipulate church attendance as part of their criteria.

I do know my dn who is c of e made his holy communion in the Catholic Church! (goes to RC school) - still don't know how that worked but he can now apply to RC school as a Catholic applicant. His parents didn't undertake any classes. This may be an option for the elder child if they undergo communion preparation.

[allthekingsshoes]

If you are baptised CoE you can be received into the Catholic Church relatively easily esp as a child. for instance if a child wants to make his/her first Holy Communion thru could work towards that and be received into the Cathloic church and it wouldn't be a huge leap for their siblings to be received at the same time . The parish priest might like to see you at Mass though .

[TalkinPeece]

I was born into a Quaker family.
For convenience of schools my parents had me baptised CofE at age 5
To fit in with the social circle I was entered for confirmation classes age 15

I was not happy about the hypocricy of it

the Vicar told me to treat it as " a lesson in self discipline"

and the bishop who actually confirmed me greeted me with "so this is the atheist one"

I suspected that most religious people were hypocrites before that day

but since then have been utterly convinced that its all about the money and that we atheists are more honest in our caring for others
as we do not need to feel we are being watched

Falsely converting religion for a short term school place is despicable
as you are lying to your children and teaching them a deeply selfish and avaricious approach to the world

look into your heart and see the empty space where honesty once sat

[ReallyTired]

Catholic priests are human beings. They do recongise the church of england up to a point. (A catholic priest will recongise a church of england baptism, even if a catholic school does not recongise a church of england baptism.)

I did consider sending my daughter to a catholic school and the school were quite happy to recongise the baptism she had at three years old. The form asks why your child was not baptised sooner than a year.

My explanation of why my daughter was baptised at three years is old is that Hannah presented Samuel to the priest Eli once he was weaned. In the past babies were weaned between the ages of two and three years old. I chose to have my daughter baptised at a similar age. The catholic priest was happy to except my explanation of why my daughter was not baptised as a baby, even if he does not agree from a theological point of view. If I chose for my daughter to go on the waiting list she would be put in the same category as non catholic christian who had been baptised before 12 months.

If you have an honest conversation with a catholic they can be completely reasonable and sensible.

[ButterflyUpSoHigh]

For our primary and secondary applications it is just being baptised that matters and not when it was done. For secondary attending a feeder school is high up on the criteria. You need to write down the date of baptism and the parish but I was never asked for a certificate.

[shebird]

I would say that your experience was quite unusual butterfly. The majority take church attendance very seriously, everyone has a baptism certificate which has to be provided with both primary and secondary applications along with a signed statement from the priest saying that the family attend church regularly. In our schools priority is given to those who were baptised before 1 year and to those who are attend more regularly than others. It all depends on what the criteria is in each parish i suppose.

[ButterflyUpSoHigh]

I am a Catholic and was brought up as one. My parents are both Catholic, my Dh is and my two Dd's are.

Our parish priest will baptise a child without the parents being Catholic.

I know this as some friends from swimming we see got their children baptised just to get in the school. They have never attended mass since. Their children didn't do their sacraments either.

Our priest lends you a dvd to watch and you have to attend one session where they tell you about Catholicism.

I am sure a lot of priests may be stricter but ours isn't.

I was baptised in 1977 and never received a certificate and my children in 2003 and 2005 and they had no certificates either.

[shebird]

I agree No134
It's not as simple as just signing up to be a Catholic and that's it job done. Most priests are aware of people's desire to convert just to get into a particular school and they do not take kindly to it. You and your children will be expected to continue to attend mass on a continuing regular basis and attend courses in preparation for baptism and first holy communion. It is not something to take lightly.

[No134]

Look, I'm only trying to explain how Catholic Church baptism and school admissions work, you don't have to believe me, but it seems a bit daft for people who are not Catholics to tell me I'm wrong.

When you are baptised in the Catholic Church you get an official baptismal certificate with the parish stamp, which is a copy of the relevant entry in the parish register. You can request a duplicate certificate at any time through the parish. I have done this, 40 years later and from another country. The certificate arrived in the post, albeit after several weeks and a few emails. Assuming their country of origin is not in a war zone, any Catholic will be able up do the same, although it might involve a bit of bureaucracy.

When you present a child for baptism, the priest will wAnt to see that certificate for the catholic parent. Some schools (secondary schools mainly, but I've encountered it for primary as well) require you to present the baptismal certificates for the child and the catholic parent at the time of applying, along with the birth certificate and the council tax bill.

You don't have to like it, but that's how it works.

[ReallyTired]

"Most parishes will require proof of parental baptism before they will baptise a child, and many schools require a parental baptism certificate as well if you are applying under faith criteria. "

It is illegal for schools to assess parents when selecting children. I doubt that many parents could get their hands on a baptism certificate. My children are baptised c of e and have a candle rather than a certificate. It would be interesting if they had to produce a certificate as an adult.

"
I think Jesus would love your children to be baptised, I don't think he would approve of you joining Christianity for a school place."

The op is Christian as she is c of e. Catholics recognise c of e baptism. It is not really that great a leap going from c of e to Catholic. I know people who have swapped between the two for various reasons. (That aren't school related.)

[No134]

I'm not sure why you're quite so cross with me, Clavinova - the OP asked for advice on Catholic schools, and I was trying to be helpful on the basis of my experience of being catholic (yes, with a non-catholic husband) and having had four dc in a range of Catholic schools.

As I suggested upthread, the fact that OP's dc1 was allocated the school rather than applying under catholic criteria is highly relevant, and there might even be a legal or admissions code case for prioritising dc2 as a sibling regardless of faith criteria. That would be worth checking with the school and LEA. Failing that, I would suggest that she would have a strong case for arguing that exceptional/compassionate/pastoral circumstances apply for her child to be admitted regardless of faith, and I imagine most priests would be sympathetic to a non-Catholic approaching them for support in this.

What most priests would not be sympathetic to is someone approaching them to be received into the church and/or to have their child baptised purely for school admissions purposes. You may think that it's routine for dc to be brought up as Catholics without one or both parents being Catholic, but it really isn't - the whole catholic education system is predicated on the child living in a CAtholic family -the quote that's always wheeled out is a line from the bishops' conference about 'parents are the first educators of their children'. Schools do undertake RE, but sacramental preparation and Mass attendance is the responsibility of the family in the context of the parish to which they belong.

Many schools frame their admissions criteria in terms of 'Catholic child living with one or more catholic parents', or 'catholic child from a practising catholic family' and it's not uncommon to require proof of parental baptism at the admissions stage. The same principle would apply even more strongly to people approaching a priest seeking baptism for the child - if you're not known to the priest in the sense of being a member of the parish community they would generally require proof of parental baptism, and also want the parents to attend a baptism preparation course and have been attending Mass regularly before carrying out a baptism. It's not about being an 'exclusive club' - you can be as poor or uneducated or working-class as you like, it's about the church being a faith community based on, well, faith.

Obviously OP is free to test this hypothesis by approaching priests to see if they will baptise her child anyway, but I stand by my opinion that most priests would not consider baptising a child where neither parent was a catholic in the absence of very special circumstances such as a child unable to live with their natural family.

OP would be much better off constructing a strong argument based on the fact that her dc1 was allocated the school, and therefore faith criteria should not apply to subsequent siblings.

[Clavinova]

No134 'Clavinova - how do you Imagine a child can be brought up as a Catholic if neither parent is a Catholic?'

That's an easy one to answer - in the same way that millions of dc around the world are brought up in a particular faith entirely through instruction at school/friendship groups and the attendance of church/temple on social/special occasions with no continued religious instruction at home whatsoever.

There are estimated to be between 4 - 5 million baptised Catholics living in England and Wales and yet only about 1 million attend mass. How many 'lapsed' Catholics (plus C of E and other religions) baptise their dc more for tradition/social reasons/don't want to break the connection/feel that they have a vague belief in God but not strong enough to worship type of feeling?

What about the thousands of Catholics married to non-Catholics? How does Mummy explain to her dc that she and they are Catholic but Daddy is not (or vice versa)? Not to mention the question of how many Catholics avoid going to confession or choose artificial birth control.

The op's dc was allocated the Catholic primary school by chance (or was it God's will No134?) and she has Catholic relations in the family. If the op is happy that her dc receive a Catholic education (where prayer and spirituality are an every day part of school life) then there is 'reasonable hope' that they will be brought up in the Catholic faith. If she is serious (and having her young dc educated in the same school and the same religion is a pretty good reason in my view) then she should approach a 'friendly priest' with a view to baptising her dc but not herself. This is possible as I know several families in a fairly similar situation (not talking about London Oratory/Coloma type schools of course).

Or perhaps Catholicism is an exclusive club where outsiders aren't welcome?

[namechangedtoday15]

I think the reality of the situation is that the vast majority of parents will do whatever they can, legally, to get a child into a sought after school. Whether it is morally right to do that is a different question.

[howtorebuild]

I think Jesus would love your children to be baptised, I don't think he would approve of you joining Christianity for a school place.

[No134]

Clavinova - how do you imagine a child can be brought up as a Catholic if neither parent is a Catholic?

Most parishes will require proof of parental baptism before they will baptise a child, and many schools require a parental baptism certificate as well if you are applying under faith criteria.

Faking or acquiring CAtholicism is not easy, and not recommended even if you can get past the cynicism involved (which is a tough call).

As I said downthread, you don't need to convert or fake it, you want to get your child admitted to a catholic school, which you can probably do legitimately, given that your older dc was allocated the school rather than applying under faith criteria.

[Clavinova]

I don't believe the op needs to convert to Catholicism herself if she wishes her dc to be baptised in the Catholic Faith. Canon law only seems to require 'consent' of one parent and 'the reasonable hope that the child will be brought up in the Catholic Faith.' If the op's dc attend a Catholic junior school for 7 years then I would suggest that there is every reasonable hope they will emerge the other side as Catholic as the other dc in their class.
As for having 6,7,8 dc - I suspect that the majority of Catholics in this country use regular contraception.

[cariadlet]

I understand your frustration, but I do think that the title of the thread is misleading.

You don't really want to know how easy it is to convert to Catholicism, because that would mean that you had doubts about your current faith/lack of faith, were attracted to the Catholic doctrine and/or ritual, want to attend Catholic services and be accepted as part of the Catholic community

What you actually want to know is how can you convince a Catholic school that you are a Catholic in order for your child to be admitted to that school.

They are completely different things.

[TalkinPeece]

I find the crass hypocricy of this thread frankly scary

[Zodlebud]

Then I would say don't do it. They must surely get a place at either of the schools and if you have no interest in the Catholic secondary school then converting for the sake of a few metres seems silly. Being taught by your father though. Hmmmmmmmmm.

[ReallyTired]

If your children are five years apart then it should be just about doable having one at the Catholic school and one at the nearest school. Many children do walk home by themselves in year 5 (aged 9 to 10) provided there are no major roads to cross.

[giddywithglee]

Also to add that the Catholic school in nearby town is apparently experiencing issues, whereas our local 'comp' is Ofsted Good and apparently awesome (well, I know quite a few leaders in their fields who went there with me I'm the 90s!)

[giddywithglee]

Think we're living in the same town, Zodel. We're not religious at all, although I did go to one of the CofE schools in town growing up, however I want my kids to go to a close-by school (private is not an option). We have the added complication that my DH teaches at the non-Catholic school on he road (which will now completely out me to anyone who knows the school or us) so DS1 may have something to say about DS2 going to Daddy's school!

[bodenbiscuit]

I disagree that Catholic and C of E are similar. Although I only have the two churches in our town to go by. My daughter went through a phase of wanting to become Catholic, so I allowed her to go to mass for some time. I do like some aspects of the Catholic Church but I have to say that I was rather concerned about some of the clearly anti women messages which came through from the priest during the sermons. And there is the question of contraception. Practicing Catholics believe it's wrong to use contraception. At our local church there are many families with 6,7,8 children. I personally couldn't reconcile myself with this view and it certainly differs from c of e approach. I think you must consider it carefully.