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Dd in disruptive class, don't know whether to try to move her (sorry v long)

48 replies

shouldwestayorshouldwego · 13/06/2015 07:10

NC as situation is easily identifiable. Dd2 is at the end of yr3. She is in a boy-heavy class (roughly 1:2). She is finding it increasingly disruptive. Since yr1 all of the teachers have left the school either at the end of the year or mid year teaching the class. My other dd says that the class has a reputation for being disruptive. DD2 frequently says that teachers have told them that they are the naughtiest class. The teachers often seem to shout at the class and they often don't earn the class rewards etc. We have been in a few times to discuss it and the (new) HT acknowledged that things needed to be done. They had a change of teacher at half term, at first dd was moved from table A to table B, she seemed happier as the table was not as disruptive. Yesterday table A and table B were amalgameted.

It sounds a bit like an Easy Jet flight as they were told to sit next to the person who was going to be their talk partner for the rest of the term, another girl grabbed her friend first. The boy who then sat next to her (not one of the most disruptive boys) then tried completely unproked to kiss her in class. She told the teacher and he was told off, but she remains upset about the incident.

The tables seem to be roughly streamed by ability and I would say that she is probably around where she needs to be in terms of position in the class, so I can't see the tables or her peers changing much over the coming years. She says there is a lower ability table which is full of disruptive boys (at least her large table is mixed). She is studious and would like to work on the higher ability table. She would though I think struggle as although presenting as bright, articulate and engaged, she has struggled to learn to read (now making good progress), and although her maths conceptual understanding is good, she isn't as fast as some on her mental maths and she still makes simple errors such as numbers back to front etc. School not too bothered as she is 'where she needs to be for her age'.

She has got some sensory issues - we haven't felt the need to have a diagnosis but I could accept that she is more disturbed in the class than some others would be. She is reluctant to move but at the same time accepts that she can't continue like this. She raises the issue constantly at home from early in the morning until late at night. I think that the kissing is the last straw. She doesn't want to sit next to the boy for the next 6 weeks, which I can understand.

We have requested another meeting. Our options seem to be

  1. continue as we are and do nothing, and hope that the class improves.
  2. to ask/hope that they shuffle up the classes to make them more balanced, redistributing all the children and splitting up the disruptive ones. I imagine that this will not be popular with 'nice class' below.
  3. request that as soon as a place is available that she moves to the other class - this is a girl heavy class with a rougly 2:1 ratio and by all reports is very calm. She knows a few of the girls, but would need to make friends. She could still see her two friends at lunchtime. I can imagine that the school will be reluctant to unbalance the classes further.
  4. move her to a different school, where we think that there is space from talking to friends, or at least put her name down on waiting list.


This would be the most complicated option. There would be no chance of a place for dd1 - she is in year 5 going to yr 6. She is happy at school, she wouldn't want to move and the other school currently only extends to yr3. There might at some point be a place to move ds (reception), but he is currently fairly happy at school. The other school would be too far to walk (although possibly doable by yr 6 - it is about 1.5 miles on foot each way, but to then drop off at the current school it would be a further 0.8 miles - too far for ds).

It starts an hour earlier and finishes an hour earlier and some of the holidays are different. We would have to drive and this would involve everyone as dh would leave for work before we did. dd1 could walk to current school from home, but it would involve her being left every day for up to an hour (while we negotiated heavy traffic etc), and potentially she would have to lock up the house. Ds would have to come with me, we would have to either drive straight to old school or drive home and then walk depending on how the timing works out. This would last for 2-3 years until dd2 goes to secondary/ can walk alone. I work at home, so could do it but would lose out on work time with the extra ferrying of children in the afternoon and different holiday times. My work is flexible so as long as the job is done my employers are happy. I also hate the hassle of driving to school, parking is a nightmare at both schools.

Other than the logistical nightmares the other school sounds like a positive move - she knows three girls in the class. The class is girl-heavy, well behaved, there is a limit of 24 chldren in the year. It is a free school but follows NC for core subjects and all of the teachers are qualified. She would also be giving up a school with lovely grounds for one with very little outside space.

I know it sounds as if I am a bit negative towards the boys, they are not all disruptive, but at least ten are regularly (on a daily basis) exhibiting behaviour which I would not want my son to be doing when he is in yr 3, and I am concerned about the impact on dd2, who has to be my priority.
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shouldwestayorshouldwego · 29/06/2015 22:41

“Safeguarding is not just about protecting children from deliberate harm. It includes issues for schools such as: pupil health and safety; bullying; racist abuse; harassment and discrimination; use of physical intervention; meeting the needs of pupils with medical conditions; providing first aid; drug and substance misuse; educational visits; intimate care; internet safety; issues which may be specific to a local area or population, for example gang activity; school security.” (Briefing for Section 5 Inspectors on Safeguarding Children, Ofsted January 2014)

I have not claimed that my dd has been sexually assulted - but she feels harassed and cornered by this boy who has kissed her, and others without their agreement. I was cross that the school did not act sooner to make her feel safer - like not sitting them next to each other.

I hope for his sake that he is not acting like this in the teenage years, but if the school do little to prevent it then how will he learn? I did not call him a sex pest - I don't think that he is but at the same time I can't let my dd think that it is fine for a boy to kiss her or wait outside toilets to catch her and kiss her after she has said that she doesn't want that. To be honest if my 5yr old ds was doing that I would be concerned and want the school to work with me to prevent it. If she has said no then she needs support to know that she will be backed up.

Anyway, not going to worry about semantics on what is a happy day and maybe he has done us a favour as the school's reaction was the last of quite a few straws and the new school does seem a better fit for her in many ways.

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Millymollymama · 29/06/2015 21:19

I think you said your DD was year 3. There is a long way to go before teenage years and it is a bit of a leap to suggest the boy will be the same then. I fear he thinks it is a game and is not respecting the perfectly reasonable view of your DD that she does not want to be kissed. It is also confusing if he has been allowed to kiss other girls without any of these saying no.

I think most schools would not accept this was a safeguarding issue with regard to the latest advice and the definitions of sexual abuse contained in it. I think we should be careful that misplaced and unwanted activities of an 8 year old are not described as sexual abuse as defined by the advice schools are working to. That does not mean they should not have dealt with it. Of course they should.

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shouldwestayorshouldwego · 29/06/2015 16:17

I think it is a fine line, however another few years and it will be more serious again. She had told him a number of times before that she didn't want him to kiss her and he still persisted. I agree that it could be confusing for a child but they do need to learn that no means no before they become teenagers. It is a safeguarding issue for the school as all children need to feel safe - even if he didn't mean anything by it she was affected by it. We didn't ask for any punishment for the boy - just that they didn't sit next to each other in class. It apparently wasn't an isolated incident.

She had a great day at her new school and seems much happier. Her teacher said that she fitted in really well and she was able to do the level of work that she wanted to do.

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Millymollymama · 29/06/2015 15:24

This is a complete aside, but I frequently see little boys encouraged to kiss girl babies and toddlers. Prince George is photographed cuddling his baby sister and we all go "Aaaaah! So cute!" . A few years later the male child is branded a "sex pest" and it is described as a safeguarding issue. It is not, but obviously it is uncomfortable for the little girl receiving the unwanted attention. How do boys unlearn their kissing and cuddling behaviour that seems so cute when directed at much younger girls, but is not acceptable a few years later? Yet another parenting conundrum. Perhaps boys shouldn't kiss or cuddle any girl, at any stage? Sad that one child with an over friendly disposition is thought to warrant the instigation of the safeguarding procedures.

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MrsTruper · 29/06/2015 11:35

...sorry just read your last post - didn't reaslise you went for it - GOOD LUCK!

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MrsTruper · 29/06/2015 11:34

What a situation..

My dd had a similar problem at her old school and eventually I moved her after a period of home ed to a school where the behaviour is better. Old class: boy heavy and disruptive (mainly the boys - sorry!) New school - more girls PLUS they also have a designated behaviour management employee - quite important I think.

My experience is that trying to get a school to change so that your dd's problems are sorted is like banging your head against a brick wall. Hopefully you won't experience that.

In case you do, I would definitely investigate your option number 4. of the alternative school in parallel with trying to sort things with your current school....ie visit/ meet with relevant staff, discuss issues, how the new school could suit you better. Be quite probing - in a nice way! Going through the process could make your mind up for you. When I was looking at an alternative school for dd, I took her along to visit/ask questions and she wanted to start straight away! School was fine about the detailed questions btw - reassuring me and her that certain 'issues' I had in the old school would definitely not happen in the new school. On the whole it worked out for us.

On the flipside, dd's new school is by no means perfect - there are different issues in the new school that were not present in the other school, but the things that are important to US are better in the new school IYSWIM.

Good luck!

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shouldwestayorshouldwego · 27/06/2015 19:39

When we looked around the other school she loved it and she starts on Monday. Hopefully her sensory issues won't be a problem there and they seem very flexible. She said that the lighting was much better and didn't give her a headache, and she can get up and move around if she wants to sit somewhere else. The class was spookily well behaved, they came in like little (slightly curious) mice and sat quietly while the teacher finished talking with us. dd was very impressed. A little sad about leaving her friends, but mainly excited. She said afterwards that she would feel very angry and sad if she had to go back to her old class for the next three years.

Lots of mixed emotions from dd1 who feels that every positive thing dd says about the new school is a dig at her school. She has though been very happy at the school, her year group is really nice and she doesn't want to move. We are all gearing up for secondary school applications so hopefully that will be eclipsed soon.

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IsItStupid · 23/06/2015 20:30

I'm glad to hear that things have improved a bit. Good luck with your decisions.

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shouldwestayorshouldwego · 23/06/2015 14:32

Going to look around the other school later this week. Things seem to have settled down and she is next to a friend so for the moment all is well. She is reluctant to consider a move, but without any assurances that her peer group is likely to change anytime soon I think that we need to explore other possibilities. So hard - at least it is only 3 years but it could go wrong whichever school she goes to. I know that some of the issues she will take with her. Just hope that we make the right decision for her.

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shouldwestayorshouldwego · 19/06/2015 13:53

Quick update from school - following a letter and email this morning and dh going in to speak to the teacher she has apparently now been moved within her class away from the boy. We will still be investigating our options and seeing whether she can move classes or schools because I don't feel that the class is a best fit for her anymore. At least for the moment I feel as if she is ok at school until other options are explored. I considered keeping her at home on Monday if she hadn't moved today.

At least she has learnt that she can say no and that you must tell someone and people (eventually) treat these things seriously. A good lesson for the teenage years. Shame she was put in that position. Thank you all for your support in making me feel as if I wasn't totally mad wanting her separated from the boy. Better for him too if he isn't next to her all the time.

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IsItStupid · 19/06/2015 08:40

Angry

It sounds like the school is not taking this seriously. No matter if the children are only seven or eight, kissing someone without their permission is NOT ON and the staff should be taking it seriously. And lying in wait outside the bathrooms is terrible! I would agree putting concerns in writing.

You have to put your DD first, OP, because apparently no one else will. I would be leaning towards moving too.

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adoptmama · 18/06/2015 19:39

Put your concerns in writing. Also put in writing the fact they have already agreed she need not partner with this boy. This is probably simply crap communication (if they have a separate PE teacher) but that is not excuse. Remind them of your expectations that your child receive her legal right to be in a safe environment, that you have already raised with them the fact this is causing her emotional distress and that, if you cannot rely on the school to fulfill its obligations you will be forced to take the complaint to the next level. Demand written assurance they will keep this boy away from her.

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shouldwestayorshouldwego · 18/06/2015 16:40

That is good to hear getinthesea . We are increasingly leaning towards moving her.

I am quite Angry today. Despite our emails and meetings not only is the boy still her talk partner but he was also paired with her for PE. I feel so cross that there are 28 other children in the class and she is still having to sit next to a child who has attempted to kiss her in class and has lain wait outside the girls toilets to catch her. I know that dh will be furious too. The school don't seem to argue at all with the facts but they don't seem to appreciate the effect it is having on her.

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getinthesea · 18/06/2015 16:05

I won't add to all of the good advice you've had about the other issues, but just wanted to say that DD has similar sensory issues with noise, to the extent that she would just shut down in a noisy environment.

We moved her from a big class that even the school admitted was quite challenging to a much smaller school, and it has been the making of her - she can concentrate in class in a way she never managed at the old one.

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adoptmama · 17/06/2015 19:40

Glad to hear the school have addressed the issue with the boy concerned. It may well be the reason they have given no indication yet about moving class is they do not want to give the impression they are promising you something they cannot later fulfill based on class sizes, staffing etc. However that is their problem, not yours and I would personally keeping pushing this issue. Did they give you a time frame for responding appropriately to your other concerns and feeding back to you again?

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shouldwestayorshouldwego · 17/06/2015 17:10

The school seem to be taking some steps to address the incident (with the boy and his parents) and they fully believe everything she said, which is good. They seem to be willing to change talk partners, we said about moving to the other class, which was noted, but no indication of whether it was likely or not. There were a number of other issues which we discussed which means that we are still considering moving her. Why is life never easy!

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Cloud2 · 17/06/2015 11:14

Once a teacher told me, every year, in a new mixed class, the teacher is easier to manage the class, as both children and teacher are new. If the class is not mixed, and the teacher come as an outsider, it is more difficult for the teahcer to manage the class.

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Cloud2 · 17/06/2015 11:11

I think parents should try to push the school to mix the class first. Our school mix the class every year. There are always some children more difficult to handler, making trouble. Teacher normally spot them right away, then school would break up the group , move these children into different class, and put the most able teacher to the more difficult class etc. And DC alway allow to put down 3 good friends name, so they always have a couple of friends with them.

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shouldwestayorshouldwego · 16/06/2015 20:47

Apparently they discussed rules in circle time dd said no kissing, and the teacher added in no hugging. No doubt in preparation for our meeting. The child has apparently been trying to be friendly and wanting to play with dd but no more kissing. I still just want him away from her but she seems less bothered, which is good from her perspective. She seems to have put the whole incident behind her. I don't know whether I should say anything to his mother. I get on well with her socially - chat in playground etc, but wanting to avoid her at the moment. We often chat about how they are getting on. In some ways if it was my ds I would want to know, but on the other hand I do tend to think what happens in school should stay in school.

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shouldwestayorshouldwego · 16/06/2015 13:37

Yes the classes are fixed from reception - although new head so no guarantees. Dd2 is very reluctant to change - as she says she doesn't like change, however all her friends who have left the class due to the disruption seem happier now. I can understand her reluctance but she only really has two or three close friends, and who knows what will happen to friendships in yr 4-6. My feeling is that if there is a bigger pool of girls it might be easier.

We are going to see the teacher tomorrow (also member of SMT). She has been ok going in - which is good. We are also going to see about investigating her sensory issues more formally - Dh works in a relevant profession which is why we haven't persued anything so far - we have a fairly good idea of her issues and until now it hasn't been a big deal at school. Dh is going to ask a colleague for a recommendation.

Other possible school still on half term so no movement there yet. DS seemed quite keen to move - but he has other specific issues and so we would need to be confident that the school would work for him. I have told dd2 that we will do whatever we can to make her safe and happy at school.

Teachers won't be known for a while yet as they are still recruiting. 4/6 ks2 teachers are leaving / have left recently plus will be another ks2 class next year as bulge class moves through school. Unless she has one of the existing two teachers next year we won't know for a while what the teacher will be like.

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IsItStupid · 16/06/2015 10:55

So are classes fixed from reception to year six? It sounds like your DD2 hasn't changed classmates since she started. If you can't be sure of a better mix next year, in your shoes I would probably move DD2.

As your DD1 is going into year 6 one year of logistical challenges would be a bit annoying but not too bad.

The problem would be your DS, and the logistical challenge of that. In the end, I would say that your DD needs something to change and if it has to be the school then it has to be the school. I know that it sounds like a real nightmare having children at two different schools but I grew up in a town with almost exclusively single sex schools so obviously families had children at all different schools and it is manageable.

Are there any secondary schools near the primaries? I know one of my neighbours pays a local sixth former twenty pounds a month to walk her DD to school, and another has someone do it for free. Or are there any busses/shuttles?

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Minispringroll · 13/06/2015 13:15

Maybe you could come and take over for next year - there are apparently vacancies!
That would be a bit late now, resignation date has come and gone. Grin Besides, I teach Year 6 and lead UKS2. Give it a little while and you can move her to ours. Grin We mix up classes frequently and have initial parents' evenings before the summer holidays. With one class I took over, a mum came to see me after looking at the class list, saying "I can't believe they've put all those silly, little boys into your class..." My face went Confused until she continued with, "You'll be amazing with them! My son thinks you are great and my daughter is really looking forward to being in your class." Grin Blush Grin (They were a great bunch and we had a fab year.)

Year 4 also tends to be a bit tricky. Girls are starting to fall out more often and boys just reach the peak of silliness. Perfect time for a shuffle. Particularly if the headteacher is new, this would be a rather good suggestion to make. Otherwise, perhaps wait until you find out who the teacher will be next year. Might be someone, who can sort them out regardless.

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DeeWe · 13/06/2015 12:43

Dd1's infant class was very boy heavy (only 11 girls) and was a delight.

Dd2's infant class as girl heavy (18 girls) and like you describe.

But although dd1 would have hated it, dd2 loved it. They mixed the forms up for year 2 (2 form entry) and I don't think she liked it as much.
Her form had almost all the confident bossy girls, all the "lively" boys. Plus had a very good top, and a very poor (for the school) bottom. Very little middle at all. The other form had almost none of the above-30 quiet, get on with it, middle ability children.

They mixed them up, and yes, some of the other class were concerned, but actually they didn't really complain because they could see that it was fair enough.
It did make for 2 much more even forms, but it didn't totally take away the disruption etc, more shared it betweent he two classes.

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adoptmama · 13/06/2015 12:01

I haven't read all the replies so apologies if I am repeating what others have said.

I would most certainly be demanding class changes. I cannot understand why the school has allowed this situation to go on so long. With one girl heavy and one boy heavy class it makes logical sense to mix them up. I would ask if they plan to make wholesale changes by amalgamating the classes and breaking up the disruptive boys. It would be best all round if this were the solution. If they have no plans to do this then I would request my child be moved to a different class. She cannot continue to go through her education being so disrupted and unhappy. It will impact her learning. If the school won't act, then I would move her to another school.

The fact there have been so many staff changes would concern me (and I am also a teacher). The fact the school have done little to address the issue is wrong.

Regarding the boy pest, his behaviour is outrageous. At his age he is very much able to be aware how wrong his behaviour is, and he needs to have this explained to him in no uncertain terms by the Head, not just by the class teacher. Clear penalties need laid out to him if he continues to harass your daughter and the other girls in this way. I would definitely be into the school on Monday morning to raise this issue in its entirety with the Head.

My DD is the same age, struggled until this year with reading and writing. Reading has improved a lot - ironically I stopped doing all reading at home with her (bloody Biff and Chip!!) and took all pressure off. She has thrived without expectations and is now one of the top readers in her class. She still hates writing and we suspect dysgraphia and or dyslexia. We got headphones for her to wear in class, which she is happy to do, which help with the sensory issues of too much noise. If questioned she simply tells others that, as you might need glasses to help your eyes, or an aid to help your hearing, she needs headphones to help her not 'hear too much'. She doesn't get teased over it. She struggles with many of the same sensitivities as you describe and I found reading about Highly Sensitive Children has helped me understand her needs more.

I would definitely be making an appointment on Monday to see the Head. In fact, I would probably be door stopping her at her office at drop off time! Good luck. Your DD needs you to take action on her behalf. She has a right to a good education and I hope the school will work with you to address all your legitimate concerns.

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shouldwestayorshouldwego · 13/06/2015 11:04

That is reassuring tacal on the whole she copes very well - she has issues around taste (e.g. toothpaste, bitter tastes), certain clothes (trousers, tights etc), she is photophobic and dislikes loud noise (although she can produce enough herself!) - she is much better than she was, she will now tollerate hand dryers etc, although wouldn't use them herself. I imagine though that in a noisy class she would find it harder to concentrate than an average child.

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