Is it time for a private tutor?

[wasabipeanut]

Just back from another "share and celebrate" session for my Y2 DS. I just wanted to cry and not for the first time. His written work is abysmal. Spelling for even the first 100 HF words still poor even though we have gone over them endlessly at home. Punctuation is infrequent or completely absent from certain sections. Most pieces seem to be just about decipherable at the beginning then lapse into incoherence.

He has had special 15 minute targeted one to one sessions on and off all year but it just is t staying in his head. He spells a word correctly one day then promptly forgets it despite being taught the same word repeatedly. Bizarrely his reading is ok - on lime colour which is ok for his age I think. Numeracy also pretty good.

Before anybody asks he is September born! I asked his teacher a few months ago what I could do to help and she said do more spelling practice at home but from what I can see it isn't working.

I hate the thought of tutoring so young but I hate the thought of him falling behind even more. People keep saying "it will come" but I fail to see how.

What do you think?

[PotatoesNotProzac]

OP - you write the words in spelling tutor, you don't type. So I do think it's worth looking at.

[AmateurSeamstress]

Hm, my Y3 is/was also an "extremely phonetic" speller but she is progressing now. I feel for you, it's so hard to put so much work in for little reward.

How are you doing the spellings? My DD can't learn spellings by looking at them at ALL. She does better writing them out, preferably in huge letters on a big whiteboard.

[maizieD]

The 'first 100 HFWs' don't actually have many unusual spellings. I analysed them a while ago and most are quite straightforward. They 'should' have been introduced a very few at a time from the start of whatever phonics programme the school uses and reading and spelling them learned at the same time. And they should have been taught as words that are mostly easy to decode but some have a 'tricky' bit. I am suspecting that this didn't happen when the OP's DS was learning to read and spell in YR & Y1. I suspect that he was given lots to learn all in one go...

Far from leaving it to see how it goes I would suggest that the OP gets help right now. A key point about spelling, which few people seem to realise, is that it uses kinaesthetic memory; memory of the movements required to spell a word. If a child has been spelling a word wrongly for a long time the kinaesthetic memory of the spelling will take over the minute they stop concentrating on just the spelling, for example, if they are doing some creative writng and concentrating on what they intend to write, not on how the words are spelled. The longer the 'wrong' spellings go on being used the harder it will be for the child to correct them.

That the child can spell phonetically is a good sign as it means that he is able to break words into their component sounds and spell each sound. It's just that he's not getting the correct spelling of each sound. That's the hard bit and that is where a good programme the OP could work through with him at home, or a good tutor who uses a reputable synthetic/linguistic phonics programme, could make all the difference.

Also, you could buy the book that Ferguson is always recommending

I get very sad when people think that their poor spellers are 'dyslexic'. It is not a sign of dyslexia, just of the fact that our English spelling system is very complex to learn and is very often very badly taught. I think that most secondary teachers in 'ordinary' schools would tell you that some 60+% of their pupils are really bad spellers (a fair number of secondary teachers will confess that they themselves are bad spellers, too ). 60% of the secondary school population are definitely not dyslexic!

[Ferguson]

Does he UNDERSTAND the major rules of punctuation, which will not be very advanced at Yr2?

As a TA, when I worked with 'reluctant' Yr2 writers, I invited them to DICTATE their story to me and I would type on the computer to their dictation.

If you have a tape recorder, or a phone that he can use to record, try letting him dictate his ideas. He can review them, amend if necessary, and then try to write or type it at a later time. This may encourage his ideas, without the immediate 'chore' of handwriting.

Encourage him to look carefully at punctuation in books that he reads; if he is amenable to discussion, see if he can EXPLAIN what effect the punctuation has in a passage, and how it would be altered if the punctuation wasn't there.

To help with spelling, this book might be worth trying:

An inexpensive and easy to use book, that can encourage children with reading, spelling and writing, and really help them to understand Phonics, is reviewed in the MN Book Reviews section. Just search ‘Phonics’.

[maizieD]

That's the one, Ferguson!

[Ferguson]

OH Maizie! You beat me to it!

[I keep meaning to PM you, in fact I've been meaning to for months! I really must make a greater effort!]

[wasabipeanut]

I've just ordered the first Apples & Pears book and I will look up the book Ferguson suggests - thank you.

Maizie - what you say makes sense as he cN often spell words correctly when he sits and thinks about it. Weekly spellings have to be put into a sentence each and he makes only a few errors and to be fairly words I wouldn't expect him to spell yet such as "friend." It just goes to crap when he writes a longer piece. The school have only really started to focus on spelling this year which I don't think has helped DS.

Hey ho. I just want to help him get over this hurdle.

[Pikkewyn]

We had this with D relier this year, reading age of 14+, verbally amazing, numeracy was okay but handwriting was appalling, spelling terrible too. The Senco reluctantly referred her to the Occupational Therapists and we have discovered she has a co-ordination delay (one point off a dyspraxia diagnoses) and we started with Write from the Start hand writing books and DD now goes to a tutor once a week as for spelling and things like times tables/number bonds which seem to be another issue associated with the co-ordination delay.

[Pikkewyn]

stupid autocorrect - with DD earlier

[mummytime]

Spelling in my experience often does go wrong in longer pieces, because they are concentrating on content rather than spelling (partly why spelling tests are a waste of time...).
My DS once mis-spelt the same word in three different ways in one long paragraph (the third was very bizarre, but when you thought about it was phonetic - think in the terms of mis-spelt BBC subtitles).

I think the best way to learn to spell is lots and lots of writing. If one particular spelling error is often made, then work on the rule behind it. Also sometime drawing attention to how the parts of a word look eg. writing it in different colours, can help.
When spelling a tricky word I shut my eyes and visualise it.

[StrongAsAnOx]

wasabi spelling practice won't work if he just doesn't get it. You have to teach him spelling rules that he can learn and apply e.g. i before e except after c, plus little games to help him remember the ones that break the rules. e.g. Big Elephants Can Always Use Small Elevators.

I also think you should get him assessed. By delaying it, his confidence will be damaged whereas if you can get him relevant interventions now then he will feel empowered. The teacher or the person delivering interventions does not sound very on the ball btw. It might be worth asking around the playground what others think of the SENCo provision at the school.

[DazzleU]

We had improvement with apple and pears - but it's had to be done very frequently - we aim for daily and get there most weeks. We've done that since October and its really starting to show sort of 2.5 book in and looking like might start book D soon for eldest - the younger one are going through slower.

I'm doing write from the start with DS - who has really bad handwriting - school has suggested co-ordination delays.

[DazzleU]

You have to teach him spelling rules that he can learn and apply

I'd say rules in English don't work especially ones like I before e except after c - it's much more knowing patterns - though rules for when to double and when to lose e or turn y into I do help - and are covered in book B of apple and pears and gone over a lot.

Breaking words down into morphemes seems very powerful tool and is what apples and pear uses. It's working with my DC anyway.

[Ineedsleepplease]

One of my DC's has very poor spelling (she's now in Y5) which doesn't match her reading, comprehension and creativity which are all good. It's the shorter, high frequency words she gets wrong (frome (from), whith, coulor, scholl etc) but she can often spell more difficult words. I'm inclined to think it will improve eventually, but she'll probably always be a bit weak on spelling. If you are worried get a test done but getting a tutor may just give your DC a negative attitude or the feeling that he is not clever enough. Try games, online or home made cards. Put the key words up around the house. Offer rewards. Try singing the spelling. There are all sorts of things you can do to help at home and keep it fun too. I would try not to make a big issue of it if possible.

[StrongAsAnOx]

DazzleU - normally I'd absolutely agree with you, but dyslexics often work differently and sometimes the old fashioned rules work better for them. Each child responds to different methods and if the normal phonetic ones don't work then it is worth a try isn't it?

[Guyropes]

I think you misunderstood one of the suggestions a ppm gave... they said 'one' word 30 times a day. This is not a task that needs to be sat down for, but you can ask the spelling verbally while other stuff is going on.

Do you think thAt a lot of the methods you hAve tried are visual? It can be assumed that it is eAsier to learn spellings visually, as it is a dominant leArning style. But some people prefer verbally. If visual hasn't been working, it might be worth a try.

[mummytime]

Actually most of the time I would say the methods aren't really look write and cover isn't really.
Its also a bad method if there is any kind of processing issue - for my DS there are lots and lots of stages in just copying something eg.:
look, try to remember, look at the space supposed to copy on, write what you can remember, look back try and remember where you've got to with the copying, look back at what you've "copied", remember where you've got to, look back and find that in the original word, then try to remember on, then look back to copied word and try to add in what you've remembered etc....
This can lead to easily copying MISSISSIPPI as MISSIPI.
It also means that you are working far harder than most other people in the class.
So the mistakes we all make when tired (try writing a letter at midnight, after a week of sleepless nights with a small baby), are likely to happen during a normal day.

A good visual method will help them fix the whole word into the brain as one picture. But yes even I still spell mississippi as "m i double s i double s i double p i" but there aren't many words with such a great rhythm.

[DazzleU]

normally I'd absolutely agree with you, but dyslexics often work differently and sometimes the old fashioned rules work better for them. Each child responds to different methods and if the normal phonetic ones don't work then it is worth a try isn't it?

Personally I don't think it is helpful to give a lots of rules that have so many exceptions - so you have to remember rule, think about applying while writing, and remember all the exceptions there are especially to people already at a disadvantage.

I'm a properly diagnosed dyslexic - I'm fully aware my problems can differ from the next dyslexic - but never found all these rules and their exceptions particularly helpful especially when I was rushing to write my ideas down before I forgot them.

We are still debating benefits of getting our older two DC at least properly and externally to school tested - at their current school the benefits aren't overwhelming. We have found though that morphemic strategies, lots of repeating of words over the many lessons - so coming up days weeks later - and building up their dictation abilities - all done in apples and pears are paying off in everyday writing.

Obviously the OP is free to try any thing she thinks will help.

[DazzleU]

Personally I don't think it is helpful to give a lots of rules that have so many exceptions to people already at a disadvantage.

So you have to remember rule, think about applying while writing, and remember all the exceptions there are.

I have no idea how I muddle that sentence up so much - though it's not uncommon for my thoughts to run faster than my writing or typing - mind you spoonerisms in my speech aren't uncommon either.

[StrongAsAnOx]

DazzleU - I was just extrapolating from what works for my son and for a couple of other kids I know. Of course different methods work for different people and the OP will know her boy better than anyone else. PS I love spoonerisms!

[maizieD]

Spelling is not a visual skill, nor is it about learning 'rules'! The OP's son already has the right idea in spelling 'phonetically'. Spelling is best done by breaking words down into their component sounds and spelling each sound in the order in which it comes in the word. Many of you clearly have no idea of how easy this makes it for the child and how it completely demystifies the process.

The difficult bit comes in identifying the correct spelling for some of the sounds but there is usually only one sound spelling that really needs to be remembered in any one word.

Retaining spellings is best done by repeated rewriting of the word saying each sound as the letters for it are written. This reinforces the motor memory for both spelling the word and for the spelling of each 'sound'. I would also encourage a child to sound out & blend exactly what they have written to check that they have got all the sounds in place in the word.

I will repeat the ending of my previous post:

I get very sad when people think that their poor spellers are 'dyslexic'. It is not a sign of dyslexia, just of the fact that our English spelling system is very complex to learn and is very often very badly taught. I think that most secondary teachers in 'ordinary' schools would tell you that some 60+% of their pupils are really bad spellers (a fair number of secondary teachers will confess that they themselves are bad spellers, too ). 60% of the secondary school population are definitely not dyslexic!

[StrongAsAnOx]

maizieD My son was totally flummoxed by the phonetic system. In fact, it made his spelling worse as there are so many words that he will spell phonetically that sound right but do not fit the phonetic rules. Please accept that different methods suit different children. It has nothing to do with labels. All people respond to different stimuli differently. So it is about trying different approaches and seeing what works for one's own child surely?

[maizieD]

In fact, it made his spelling worse as there are so many words that he will spell phonetically that sound right but do not fit the phonetic rules.

I'm sorry, I don't understand that sentence at all.

Was he a good speller who suddenly got worse?
How can a word that 'sounds' write not 'fit the phonetic rules'?
What 'phonetic rules'?

[Tissie]

Your examples indicate he is using phonic skills but as English is only 85% regular and that includes all sorts of rules such as silent e hat/hate pet/pete pip/pipe not/note cut/cute it is not very helpful in much writing.
A different approach would be to cut down the number of words you are trying to teach him, focus on the common sight words you see misspelled in his work and go over them using a multi sensory approach. The problem with just leaving it is that misspellings may become stuck which makes it harder to change later.
I am a grandmother with a mother, brother and grandson who are all dyslexic. I am also a recently retired special needs teacher with 40 years experience. I did take on a just 6yrs old girl some time ago as she was very dyslexic. As well as my weekly session I left materials and instructions for the parents to do 15 mins per night at least 5 times a week. It made a huge difference.
Multi sensory approach
child and parent make word using plasticene or clay for individual letters.
look at word and name (not sound) each letter
trace word on table saying each letter
look up to left and "see" word on wall (ask what colour child sees in, it helps with visualisation) say the word
look down and to the right to trace word on the table, say the word
write the word on paper
write a short sentence using the word

Yes it is long winded but it does work. You may have to start with just one word and do it every day for a week before you add a second word. Even then you need to constantly go back and practise the old words. I hope this helps.

[Padthai]

Though it is lovely to hear positive stories about children catching up and doing well. I would take yor DC for private educational psychology testing. I would get an IQ test and educational level testing. When we weriving in the Uk I stupidly listened to staff at my DC outstanding primary who told me Dd did not need testing. When we moved we got a great Tutor who advised testing and was spot on with what she thought was the problem with Dd. we are now targeting the specific areas where she has problems. She is in year 6 though so there is lots of stress as we need to get this sorted.
Her UK school had set level 5 as her SATS targets if we had stayed and treated me like a hysterical middle class mother for 3 years. How wrong they were!
Your DC may have problems with working memory which will show up in an IQ test. Have a google and look at an American website called understood.org which though very American has some good articles explaining why kids can do well in some areas but not so well in other areas.