School waiting lists - unfair

[JimmyCorkhill]

Hope this is the right place to post.

DD1 is due to start school this September. Despite living extremely close to 4 primary schools we didn't get a place as they are all oversubscribed (plus one is Catholic which we aren't). Obviously we put her name on all the waiting lists. The furthest distances for 1st round offers were all less than a few hundred metres.

There is a brand new academy opening near us which we also applied to and got a place (you could apply as an extra choice). Unfortunately, as we learn more about this school we are disliking it more and more. We are really hoping that a place opens up for us at one of our original choices.

I have rung to check DD1's position on the waiting lists and decided to do an update ring today only to discover that she has gone backwards on the list! Apparently late applications have pushed her back.

Will this be due to LAC/SEN? Or will someone really be prioritised over DD1 because of distance? IF so, that's incredibly unfair as we followed all the rules and time scales. There's no point applying till you feel like it then is there?

I am fighting back tears here. I really feel let down by our council. Can someone explain it to me please?

[ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy]

Jimmy, the population may have risen but the birth rate has risen and fallen. If part of the rise is due to longevity and to immigration of adults without primary age children, then school places haven't necessarily been affected.

Also, population distributions change.

I believe that, some years ago, there were too many places so some schools contracted or closed; these schools can't now be switched back on.

[KnittedJimmyChoos]

clam population has always risen its the only way it can go....they seemed - the gov to be able to plan much better in past for population rises and even bring class no's down.

I dont understand why its an explosion right now of places, Its not something I remember being an issue.

[MirandaWest]

Seems that the 30 children limit in infant classes came in in 1998

[clam]

Also, there's been a massive rise in population, and insufficient expansion of existing schools or building of new ones.

[KnittedJimmyChoos]

wow, Yes to be fair I was probably in a class of 40 .

so when did new 30 rule come in?

[prh47bridge]

I don't understand why in my day in the 70's you could go to any school you chose pretty much!

Back then there was no restriction on class sizes and a surplus of places. In my last year of primary school (mid 1960s) I was in a class of 44 children. Even though there is no legal limit on class sizes in Y6 there is no way that would be allowed today.

[Dayshiftdoris]

Sorry OP - I actually came on your thread because a friend is in a similar position and is beside herself...

She doesn't really have a workable school place (there wasn't one really due to locations of the schools) and we have been baffled by the waiting list but this has confirmed what we thought. Thank you for asking the question and apologies for my rant above

[Dayshiftdoris]

It's not fair to burden a class with a child that would take lots of resources.



That's why it took 6 months to place my child with additional needs after his school said the could not and would not meet his needs any longer...

Sunflower - your lack of empathy and selfishness astounds me... That statement is so unbelievably hurtful and your previous statement regarding 'mother tongue' is inappropriate too.

[titchy]

There were 40 kids in my class at primary - which was why the rules were changed! No TA either

[KnittedJimmyChoos]

the whole system is utterly beyond ridiculous I dont understand why in my day in the 70's you could go to any school you chose pretty much!

whats the problem? its ridiculous!!

[ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy]

Although you might not have thought to do so, if you had asked the school/LA prior to the appeal if there were any plans to expand, they would have been obliged to tell you whether you visited or not.

In fact the panel may well have been informed of that anyway as school expansions usually have prior announcements or consultations which are not secret.

[clam]

"It's not fair to admit a child that would take a lot of resources at the expense of other children."

That is irrelevant and would not have 'tipped the balance' in your favour. In fact, from what I have read on here, it is lucky that someone on the panel wasn't so irritated by the assumption that it 'tipped the balance' the other way, against you. Luckily, the panels are impartial to such views, and award places based on the rules. Whether a child might "burden" a class has no bearing on the procedure.

[Sunflower123456]

I don't think an English child would be looked on more favourably at an appeal, as that's against the law. We just wanted to assure the panel that our daughter won't burden a class that has already reached it's maximum size. It's not fair to admit a child that would take a lot of resources at the expense of other children.

[Blu]

Actually, to be honest, I am irritated by your assumption that that an English home language child should / would be looked on more favourably in an appeal by an outstanding state school.

[Blu]

I think the point is that this is a thread about fairness, and the importance of that, and that school admissions is tightly controlled by law.

It does sound as if the PAN and the expansion were the factor. Head teachers have no grounds on which to 'mind' or otherwise ; the admission criteria wrt to distance is all that counts. If a panel allows the 'nice-ness' of a child to tip the balance they are acting unlawfully.

It is important to people like the OP to know that unfair practices do not prevail. In your case you succeeded because of sound reasons.

[Sunflower123456]

I think most of the arguments we raised were not very strong, but they helped to tip the balance in our favour. Our main arguments were that the class size was below 30, the school was expanding after the summer term to cater more children, we would be able to get to the school on time, and that our daughter had no where to go after the Spring term. Also the panel was very friendly.

Having visited the school before the appeal, was a great help. Otherwise we wouldn't have known that the school was expanding, and the headmaster didn't mind where we live.

[ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy]

Sunflower, I think they key points that worked for you were 1. A PAN of 25 being low and well below the 30 ICS limit and 2. The school's plans to expand class sizes I the near future meaning the balance of prejudice to them admitting one more pupil was in your favour.

Unfortunately few mid-term appeals will have these characteristics.

[Blu]

I am pleased you were able to get a place in a school you are happy with, Sunflower, and presumably the appeal was won on the packed lunch argument? And maybe knowing some children there? Schools are not allowed to pick and choose children who are bright and sociable and do no have EAL!

[Sunflower123456]

Our daughter was also refused a mid-term application to an outstanding primary school, as it was full (only 25 in class) and we live 3 miles away. We appealed, and she was granted a place (we're so thankful). Our reasons were :

• We saw the head master and he said he didn't mind where we live, as long as we could take and collect our daughter there on time.
  

• There is a short cut to the school, so morning and afternoon traffic wouldn't be a problem. Also the school she's attending was 5 miles away and we always got there on time, even with all the tram building work in Nottingham.
  

• Our daughter would not have a school to go after the Spring term, as we had given the private school one terms termination notice (see my topic - Nottingham Girls High School and eczema) BTW, going from state to private school is easy and quick, but going from private to a good state school is difficult and slow.
  

• The school would allow our daughter to bring home packed lunches, and wouldn't be forced to eat school canteen lunches as the private school. (Our daughter is sensitive to dairy, nuts, eggs and soya but the private NGHS head refused her to bring packed lunches, even though the school contract stated it's permitted. We complaint to their trust, GDST, but they basically ignored our complaints and refused a panel hearing.)
  

• The school would be expanded in the Autumn term to cater more children, so it's just an extra child for one term
  

• Our daughter already knew some pupils here, so she would settled in very quickly
  

• Our daughter is bright, sociable and her mother tongue is English, so she wouldn't need any special attention
  

Our daughter has attended the new school for one and half terms now, and she's very happy there. More importantly, her eczema is now back to slight, from severe when she was at the NGHS. We are so grateful that she got a place at an outstanding school after an appeal.

[JimmyCorkhill]

Oh no, Relocator, I was worried I had really upset you

[RelocatorRelocator]

Sorry if it sounded like I was having a go at you jimmy - I didn't mean to.

Hope a place comes up for you very soon. It's a very stressful time I know.

[JimmyCorkhill]

That's encouraging pyrahh, thanks for that

[pyrrah]

We got a waiting-list place for our 1st choice 3 weeks into the Autumn term from position 42.

Fortunate that the school was in an area where all the schools are outstanding, very high mobility and a lot of families from overseas.

2 children didn't turn up as they'd returned to their own countries, and 2 others left, so 4 places came up at once. Most parents on the waiting-list decided not to take the place as quite happy with the school they had (and not long enough into the school year to find reasons not to like it!), had bought the uniform and child had just settled.

I was told on the Thursday morning and she needed to start the following Monday, so mad dash to do all the forms and buy new uniform - which was a complete bugger as had bought for the school she was originally allocated (donated it anonymously to a family with serious financial issues so at least it went to a good home) and new one is completely different colours.

So, don't lose heart, places do come up.

[JimmyCorkhill]

Relocator I started this thread because I didn't understand the system. And I wanted it explained to me which everyone has done.

I'm sorry that you have to move and I'm glad you have school places sorted. Of course your children deserve a place.