Phonics testing. Why not sight words as well?

[proudmama72]

Just that really. There's was extra effort put into phonics data collection. Would it not also to be beneficial to test knowledge of sight words. They seemed to impact my kids reading development.

Phonics is important, but just wondering why all the extra resources and emphasis solely on phonics.

[KateSMumsnet]

AHEM!

We understand people feel strongly about this topic, but can we remind you to post within our talk guidelines?

[Mashabell]

Feenie
The site to which u gave the link is big and complex.

Can one of u phonics experts on MNH not simply say which of 135 graphemes below the phonics check might include?

a, -able, a-e, ai, air, al, all, ar, are, -ary, -ate, au, augh, aw, -ay,
b, ca/o/ut, cc, ce/ci, ch, -cial, -ck, -cy,
d, -dge,
e, -e, ea, ear, ee, e-e, ei, eigh, eir, er, -er, ere, -et, eu, ew, -ey,
f, ga/go/gu, ge-/gi-, -ge, gh, gn, gua, -gue, h,
i, -i, -ible, -ic, ie, i-e, -ie, igh, -ign, -ind, -ine, ir, is, -ite,
j, k, kn, l, -le, m, mn, n, ng,
o, -o, oa, oar, o-e, -oe, oi, ol, oo, -oor, or, -ore, ou, ough, -ought, oul, our, -our, ow, oy,
p, ph, qu, qua, r, -re, rh,
s, sc, -scious, -se, sh, -sion, -ssion, -sure, -sy,
t, -tch, th, -tion, -tious, -ture,
u, -u, ue, u-e, -ue, ui, ur, -ure, -ury,
v, -ve, w, wa, wh, wo, wor, wr,
x, y-, -y, --y, y-e, z ??

[Feenie]

Kate, I thought we were! This is a fairly civilised phonics discussion for once surely?

[Feenie]

Can't, Masha - your list is too odd.

[jaffacakesallround]

CG Maybe it's because their minds are so expansive that they've grasped the concept of there being more than one type word.

No ,there isn't more than one type of word.

There are words and there are abbreviations of words.

Mr and Mrs are the latter. They are not 'words' and more than Dr. is a word ( doctor). That is why they ought to have a full stop after them ( if correctly punctuated) to show that.

You need to grasp this before you try to advise anyone.

[Feenie]

Some of your 'graphemes' are suffixes that would not be included, such as able, ary, and are odd combinations of graphemes that wouldn't be taught as they appear on your list.

As we've pointed out. Many, many times.

[mrz]

Phonics Screening Check

, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , (), , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and , ar>, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and in words with the structures CVC, VCC, CVCC, CCVC

[proudmama72]

mrz - the flash cards I have used contain 'sight' words and I think these are mostly high frequency words. some follow 'phonological' -not sure if that's the right term - patterns and some do not, e.g., 'one' or 'who'.

It's an interesting debate, and if research has shown phonics is more important than so be it.

[mrz]

They all follow phonological patterns - even one and who

[proudmama72]

I don't know the right term, but the difference between words like 'one' and 'found'. They are both high frequency but both not easily decodable.

[proudmama72]

Thanks, that was very useful.

, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , (), , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and , ar>, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and in words with the structures CVC, VCC, CVCC, CCVC

[mrz]

one has a very unusual spelling (from old English) found is quite straightforward (all common spellings for the 4 sounds) but they are both easily decodable once you know the code proudmama

[catkind]

Why all the quibbling about whether Mr is a word or not (it only has a . in American English I think?). It's in a lot of books so children will at some point need to learn to read it without it being spelled out. You can use the M and r as clues, but essentially it needs to be memorised doesn't it?

Like some other words where the phonics are vanishingly rare like "eye" and "the". (Or am I just having a mind-blank about words where e makes an uh sound?) Okay so we could invent books without "eye" and "the" in but it wouldn't get them very far living in the real world. And I don't think it makes sense to give them unusual and rare phonics rules just so they can read single useful words, when for the rest of the phonics they're still at the one sound one or two letters stage.

But it does make sense to test the phonics to me because that will enable them to read maybe 99%, and once they can do that the rest quickly slots in.

[jaffacakesallround]

Why all the quibbling about whether Mr is a word or not (it only has a . in American English I think?). It's in a lot of books so children will at some point need to learn to read it without it being spelled out. You can use the M and r as clues, but essentially it needs to be memorised doesn't it?

Because CJ was using it as an example of an irregular word that couldn't be learned using phonics. And then she started dividing words into 'natural' and 'unnatural' words.

All abbreviations used to have a . after them; this has been phased out a lot though with more simplified punctuation over the past 40 years- I was taught at school to use a . after it and it wasn't in the US.

[mrz]

Abbreviations should always have a full stop (in British English) but it's often missed out.
public.oed.com/how-to-use-the-oed/abbreviations/#a

Mr. is actually the abbreviation for Master and Mrs. is the abbreviation for Mistress.

[catkind]

Interesting, it was taught without a . when I was at school in the 80s. I've not seen this rule before:
www.oxforddictionaries.com/words/punctuation-in-abbreviations
but it does make sense.

[maizieD]

Children do have to learn the difference between an abbreviation and a full word.

It's a shame that the . after an abbreviation is being dropped, it was a good 'punctuation clue' as to whether you are dealing with a whole word or an abbreviation. It is vital in some cases, such as 'no'. With it 'no.' is the abbreviation of numero, number, without it 'no' is the negative word.

[columngollum]

It wouldn't be much help for people who don't know what a word is. The dictionary definition is an articulate sound uttered by the human voice or printed. I'm afraid all of your struggles to outlaw this word or that word on account of the fact that it is an abbreviation are futile.

Mr. and Mrs. are words that can't be decoded. Get over it.

[jaffacakesallround]

I don't like that link to abbreviations Catkind because is mixes up two different things: abbreviations and acronyms.

NATO is an acronym for North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and as such would not have a . between the letters because the letters make a word. BBC is similar though not a true acronym.

Abbreviations are really short versions of a complete word eg Mr =Mister and the . shows that letters are missing.
BBC is an abbreviation of sorts, taking the first letter of each of 3 whole words.

[jaffacakesallround]

catkind oh it had all gone downhill by the 80s!

I first went to school in 1959- things were much stricter then.

[mrz]

you can't decode master (or mister) and mistress (or missus) CG?

[jaffacakesallround]

It wouldn't be much help for people who don't know what a word is. The dictionary definition is an articulate sound uttered by the human voice or printed. I'm afraid all of your struggles to outlaw this word or that word on account of the fact that it is an abbreviation are futile.

Mr. and Mrs. are words that can't be decoded. Get over it

Eh? For the umpteenth time Mr. and Mrs. are NOT WORDS.

A dictionary definition is an articulate sound uttered by the human voice.

No- a dictionary definition is the defined meaning of a word.


You still clearly cannot grasp the difference between an abbreviation, acronym and a whole word. Shame really, as it's quite simple if you put your mind to it.

[teacherwith2kids]

I tend to think about it a bit like the testing of new treatments for an illness:

If you were ill, which would you prefer to take?

Drug A: Works in c.80% of cases. Doesn't treat symptoms directly, but requires the patient to subconsciously work out the way to treat the symptoms [though many patients do not realise that is what they are doing, and so think it is the drug addressing the sym,ptoms directly]. Starts with the simplest symptoms, and can only be applied to really complex symptoms once the patient has done the subconscious part OR after very very long treatment.


Drug B: Works in 95% plus of cases, though it has to be administered carefully. Treats symptoms directly, and is able to tackle very complex symptoms right from the start. For a very small subset of symptoms, a specific modification of the treatment is required to treat one part of the symptom.

[teacherwith2kids]

Should also add: Drug A was very, very commonly administered to current parents and current teachers until quite recently, leading to a widespread belief in its success that is not borne out by empirical research, as there is a sampling bias because those people for whom it was unsuccessful are much less able to express their views as a result of the lack of success of their treatment.

[Seryph]

The problem is that some abbreviations are accepted as "words", and it's also worth mentioning that acronyms are abbreviations, and abbreviations are neologisms (new words). Essentially abbreviations come in two forms (plus an extra one): Acronyms such as JEEP, NATO, LOL, GIF; and Initialisms such as BBC, UK, FDR, MA, BSc (the extra one are hybrids like CD-ROM, JPEG; and some abbreviations plus clipped words like MPhil (Masters of Philosophy)).

Mr. is the current English Language accepted spelling of the word "mister", which started life as an abbreviation of "master" and now "master" and "Mr." are considered two separate words! Very complicated.

Basically from a linguistic perspective abbreviations words like any other neologisms (including Eponyms: watt, nicotine, atlas; Onomatopoeias; Back-formations: cherry, grovel; Compound words: hovercraft, bonfire, woman, holiday; Portmanteau words: smog, blog, brunch, sitcom. Etc etc etc), but from a perspective of teaching children this isn't massively helpful.

Presumably when teaching children about abbreviations like Mr. and Mrs. you teach them "mister" and "missus", and explain that they are written thusly. Though I also expect that this is the kind of thing kids pick up well before you'd get to that point since they are surrounded by Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms. Teacher, TA, Head, Deputy Head, Parents, Doctors etc, and already know these abbreviations.