Fed up with our school being preferential to the clever kids!

[minko]

My DD is in Yr 6. She came home last Friday really demoralised by school. She has issues with dyselxia and struggles with school, though she always works hard and does her best. A few of her friends keep being repeatedly selected to go on seminars and other one day/ weekend events that they have been chosen for as they are the 'brainy kids'. It is really starting to get my goat. I complained to the teacher today and she said that the organisers ask for certain 'profiles' of the type of kids they want. Now that's all well and good for the kids chosen but it's not very inclusive! I think if opportunites are going to be offered they should pick the names out a hat and that be that. You wonder sometimes if the kids are benefitting or the profile of the school. Am I wrong to get upset about this??

[sittinginthesun]

Indians - I take your point completely. It's just, in our school, our SEN children and high achieving children were the two groups singled out as particularly failing to meet progress expectations.

[sittinginthesun]

Pique - I know. It was based on the dashboard results, but we are fairly unusual as we look on paper like a middle class school in a leafy area (as the ofsted inspector pointed out, we have "trees!"), but have a very mixed intake compared to other local schools.

They made it clear that they expected higher than expected levels - they are looking for 15 -16 points for our year 5 class.

[Retropear]

No Indians not every child can but children not being stretched or who don't have high enough expectations of them within the group they're in should either have the bar raised within the group they're in or move up.

[sittinginthesun]

Retropear - didn't see this, as our key stage 1 was okay (I am a governor not a teacher), but I guess they will be the same with the key stage 1 data. They expect a certain number of points in key stage 1 also, and this is shown on the dashboard.

[notagiraffe]

OP I sympathise. Schools seem to find it hard to get the balance right. Our school never did anything to encourage academically bright DC but the sporty ones were constantly being picked for this event and that. the non sporties felt like second class citizens.

Just let her know that different children like and excel at different things. If school doesn't rate her artistic, sporting, theatrical ability - take her to an extra curricular club that does.

[PiqueABoo]

"If that table also has two L6s (who were working at L6 in Y5) then there is nowhere for them to go and they are left just twiddling their thumbs"

--

Summer-born, not KS1 top-table, not drilled/tutored, not well-taught or cosseted by school, not notoriously confident or preppy DD is one of those.

However just a few years ago she'd have fallen off the end of primary maths a couple of years early, so it's difficult to look the revived L6 gift-horse in the mouth. Plus it looks like secondary will make them learn it all again so L7+ would make that even worse at a time when the hormones might not be too forgiving. Plus-plus she's happy enough now doing 'pipsqeak' maths stupidly fast and all that time dumped on the computer still doesn't bother her too much.

Must. Stay. Positive. I WILL survive her Y6

[spanieleyes]

If they are level 6 in year 5 then there is the whole of level 7 to work through, before moving onto level 8! Why would you have to sit twiddling thumbs!

[intitgrand]

What about the kids who are duffers at sport and never get picked for teams , meets etc

[exexpat]

spaniel eyes - have you ever found a primary school that was geared up to teach, for example, maths at level 8? To become a primary teacher all you need is a grade C at GCSE maths, which may have been many years ago - I think level 8 is basically GCSE level, and children who are working at that level in primary school would need someone very comfortable with advanced maths concepts to keep them interested.

I don't believe many primaries are really in a position to teach anything at level 7 or 8 - level 6 is all they are generally equipped to do, and even that is a recent improvement: when DS was in year 6 a few years ago, they hadn't introduced level 6 Sats yet, so they spent the entire year going over maths he had found too easy in year 4 and 5, in order to make sure that everyone got their level 3 or 4 Sats.

[spanieleyes]

I taught a boy last year who was level 7b by the end of year 5, there's nothing particularly stretching about level 7/8 maths, most of my top group could pass GCSE foundation maths now and have a good go at the higher paper by the end of the year! ( And my maths O level was gained nearly 40 years ago!).

[intitgrand]

I didn't think they tested above level 6 at primary?

[exexpat]

I am guessing you do not work in a non-selective state primary, then?

[spanieleyes]

I certainly do! I work in a rural primary with 30% EAL and a similar figure for free school meals. Bright children are not confined to selective schools you know!

You can "test" a child at any level-although just passing a test doesn't mean you are confidently working at that level, it might have been a fluke! Most schools use a combination of testing and APP grids to level performance, these grids go up to level 8 so it is relatively easy to assess to this level. Old Key stage 3 tests also measure up to level 8, so no problems there either!

[PiqueABoo]

@spanieleyes, if you haven't seen it this is a report for the DfE on L6:

www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-of-key-stage-2-level-6-tests

They must have been paying by the word because that's lengthy, but one relevant part is Chapter 7 "Secondary schools' views".

Standard KS2 SATs levels were problematic (Secondary: "they teach to the test!"), L6 seems more so and L7+ is likely begging for future trouble unless you've got an interesting upstream secondary.

I had a related conversation last year with DD's relatively wise and best-est-ever primary teacher and they said they were reluctant to teach things that secondary would automatically teach them all over again. With a Y6 DD and a pseudo-choice to make I've recently asked a couple of secondary maths HoDs and they essentially confirmed what primary teacher said.

As an alternative to dooming children to future repitition/boredom, primary could teach something off-piste, but naturally the key areas are on the curriculum so that risks being a bit peripheral and not especially useful... a bit like most of the 'bolt-ons' that kicked off this thread.

[columngollum]

If the child can actually pass the gcse then better let him or her do so. Then secondary will have to teach that child something else.

[spanieleyes]

I have seen the report, I contributed to it!!

A secondary school shouldn't "automatically" teach a subject again, if my children are secure in an area, I move them on, secondaries should do the same! I agree though, my year 6's come back to visit and say " maths is boring, all we do is repeat what we already know" Well, they shouldn't! I would be lambasted if I didn't assess and build on what the children already know, secondary schools seem to think they can just say " we don't believe they can do it" and teach them all over again!

[mrz]

My son didn't learn anything new in maths of science for the first three years in secondary spanieleyes.
We actually had a visit from a group of secondary heads who admitted they didn't realise what was taught in primary

[spanieleyes]

You're right, I don't think they have any idea! They just say "OH, primary schools teach to the test" as if that means we don't teach what is on the curriculum! We have no idea what is on the test, so how can we teach just that!

My authority has just started transition clusters, where teachers from primary and secondary meet half a dozen times a year to discuss what is taught in each and how we aid the transition from KS2 to KS3. I'm on the maths transition team and will be trying to explain to secondary colleagues that actually, some of us can teach maths quite well and our children are at the level we say they are! I fear I could be fighting a losing battle

[mrz]

Our level 6 pupils go to the comp once a week to work with staff

[spanieleyes]

I think that part of our problem is that our children move onto a large number of secondary schools, usually around 6-7 different ones each year, so no one school feels "responsible" I have tried to get secondary teachers in to see what we do but no one seems interested as they only receive 3-4 children from us in a year! The Transition Teams are an attempt by the local authority to get some understanding going!

[Iamnotminterested]

exexpat - my DD was one of the kids you refer to who needed help to get their level 3 or 4. Dont be so dismissive of the kids who aren't level 6 or 7 at the end of primary.

[ShoeWhore]

My experience (as a governor) with Ofsted matches yours sitting - they told us they are looking for better than expected progress as well ie 13-14 APS progress for most if not all children.

So my upper end of average ds (year 5) is being targeted for extra support this year as they think he can do more than he is currently.

We are also in consultation with other local primaries and the secondary school we feed into about how to teach L7 Maths as we have some children who we predict will need this by the time they reach Yr6, if not before.

[mrz]

exexpat when KS2 tests were introduced in 1995 they tested level 6 and continued to do so until 2003.

[exexpat]

mrz - ah, obviously DS was obviously in yr 6 at just the wrong time - he did Sats in 2009, which I think was only a year or two before they introduced the new level 6 Sats.

iamnotminterested - I would never be dismissive of children working at whatever level. What I was criticising was a teaching system that made a whole class spend a whole year repeating work that was too easy for many of them (but possibly still too hard for some) just because getting the whole class through the test was more important to the school's league table position than making sure that everyone in the class was making progress, from whatever level they started at. DS basically learnt nothing in yr6 maths (and not much in yr5) and was bored all year. Possibly it would be better now, if Ofsted is paying attention to individual progress rather than national targets, and there is the level 6 test for the school to aim for.

[exexpat]

(sorry, too many 'obviously's there)