Is child really bright or is this just the norm is certain areas?

[Knacks]

My Yr4 child has just got end of yr results and got 4a 4a and 4b (apparently this is the level expected at end yr6). Is this normal in certain areas/schools or is this an exception and should we be looking into alternatives (although I have no idea what...)? The school don't have G&T and apparently work at different levels within the classroom although she loves the school and only about once a week comes home saying it was dull and too easy but she's generally just very happy. What do the results go up to anyway before they change the grading structure?

[CinnamonAddict]

Jenai I know. The difference was that they didn't learn anything from Easter year 5. There were "enrichment" English and maths classes promised which only took place twice (and were dropped as soon as Ofsted was through the door).

They were seriously fed up. Not just a bit bored. They never got any homework and my dd said she felt like screaming sometimes when they started to go over the same things again and again without any differentiation, including the worksheets.
It's down to the teachers and the school. The teachers sending them out to do other stuff was down to me asking to give them something more challenging. I was close to giving them worksheets to school and asking the teacher to just let them work in the library.

[pointythings]

Re private schools I think it depends on the school... The private prep near where I work selects academically - children must reach L3 at the end of KS1 to be admitted. For those children L5 at the end of Yr6 would be expected progress and no more. It would be different for non-selective private schools.

I think parental input is the key - not hothousing or tutoring but ensuring homework gets done, reading to them and with them every night, not using the TV and computer games to keep them quiet, eating together at the table and talking about family things. These are all things many of us take for granted which very many children do not get.

[JenaiMorris]

Cin I'm not trying to dismiss what you're saying about your child being bored in Y6 being down to her ability, but my own distinctly average (and below in Y7 - some of his levels have dipped!) was also often a bit 'meh' about school then, too.

Aside from all the leavers perks and the SATs push, a lot are I think. They outgrow primary, basically. Schools get them doing odd bits of 'helping' to address that, maybe.

[irregularegular]

This is quite helpful: www.devon.gov.uk/fostering-national-curriculum-levels.pdf

Who says tutoring is the norm? I don't think any of Yr 4 in our nice, affluent primary school (with some level 5s) are being tutored. A few Yr 5 are - for 11+/private school entrance.

[pointythings]

DD2 was 5c-5c-4b last year at the end of Yr4, she's certainly being stretched by the school and is on course for L6 end of next year. She's by no means alone, there are 4 or 5 other children in her year group of about 60 who are at that level and the school just copes.

She did get a compulsory (small) piece of holiday homework last year so we did it the weekend before she started back. If she gets anything major this year there will be strike action in the pointy household.

[BlackeyedSusan]

given that a handful of children will be taking level six papers in year six, then a handful of children will be at these levels in year four. rarely, a child will be working at level four at the end of year two. (right hand end of the bell curve and all that. )

[lljkk]

I wouldn't call it normal. Normal implies typical and it's not typical for entire population. Maybe typical for the predominantly native-born financially comfortable well-educated parents average of MN, admittedly. It should be within the scope of what a decent school can cater for.

[CinnamonAddict]

yy to exoticfruits.

It all depends on how well the school stretches her. My older dc's school didn't do level 6 in year 6, both dc had level 5 I think in year 5 and I remember asking what they would do for the last year and a bit. Got told of course they would expand, stretch , blah.
Didn't happen, both children were very bored (send to sort out library on their own, given admin tasks instead of academic ones). We had to provide lots of extra stuff outside school, but honestly, school in year 6 was a waste of time for them. They couldn't wait to get away.

In other schools they would have been taught differently and we would not have had to struggle to keep the work ethic (they both have) alive.
Both are doing fine at secondary (grammar) but had we not given them extras (level 6 work in maths, english etc) they would probably have struggled.

[exoticfruits]

It depends entirely on the area and the school, curlew. As a supply teacher I know some classes where she would be exceptional and some where she would be average.

[WynkenBlynkenandNod]

I prefer the less interventionist approach myself, feel it is important to develop self motivation . We do emphasise the importance of doing your best plus are on hand for help if needed and provide appropriate resources. I also trust the schools to direct the children as appropriate.

So is this lack of parental involvement or because DH and I have several degrees between us and there aren't many private schools here, are we allowed into the not micromanaging homework club ?

It's so sad that a lot of these threads end up with elements of state vs private. I suppose it is inevitable as education is such a highly emotive issue that people often feel a need to justify their decisions. But for the overwhelming majority state is the only option. And I think people don't realise how large the regional variations are.

Going back to OP the key I feel is that the child involves loves school and is happy. This plus the combination of good grades mean the school is handling things well.

[curlew]

"Quite normal. A level 4 is where every year 6 DC should be, unless SN- therefore lots of them are going to be way ahead of that. She may be just average in her class- it depends on the rest of them."

She's unlikely to be "average" in her class- wouldn't that mean loads of them being level 6 in year 4 to balance out the level 2s?

[exoticfruits]

If you read the threads on 11+ you will find that a higher level in SATs won't necessarily get you a place- the competition is so intense.
It depends entirely on the school and the area- she could well be average.

[PowderMum]

Both my DC have always been in state education, L4 in Y4, L6 in Yr 6, stretched enough by the school who were able to work with different ability groups in each year class

Neither did work outside of the school curriculum at primary level or were pushed by me as I felt that life and experiences are as important as formal education.

Now in secondary education DD1 who is focused and studious has been in the top set for everything in her state secondary, non selective, and is hopefully on target for A or A* across the board when we get the results in August. She has done all her GCSEs in Y11 which is generally preferred by universities, I am sure she could have done them early but again I couldn't see the need, she has been able to enjoy childhood not be hothoused.

DD2 is also at the higher KS3 levels and will be on target to get top GCSE grades, however she has not been in the top sets for everthing despite getting the highest level in Y6 as so many children in our area also did, what she has been is in sets with others working at her level so that she thrives and is motivated to succeed.

IME a good understanding of life outside of national curriculum subjects and targets has helped my DC develop a broad range of skills and a more mature outlook on life than some of their peers.

[exoticfruits]

Quite normal. A level 4 is where every year 6 DC should be, unless SN- therefore lots of them are going to be way ahead of that. She may be just average in her class- it depends on the rest of them.

[Growlithe]

So, if it's a state school child, it's called 'lack of parental support'. If its a private school child, it's 'not micromanaging children's homework'. Great spin.

[glaurung]

The thing is, sometimes not micromanaging childrens homework does them a favour in the long term. Some private school parents believe they can step back from overseeing homework to a larger degree since a private school ethos is more likely to promote good attitudes to homework etc without parental intervention. So arguably these parents do care, but just have more trust in their schools (rightly or wrongly) and prefer the less interventionist approach.

[mrz]

poppydoppy private schools can set their own curriculum and many don't follow the National Curriculum or use levels so your statement is inaccurate

[Jinsei]

Jinsel, I do get what you mean, but expecting a return isn't what I'd call caring. I think it's just the use of the word 'care' we differ on.

Maybe, or maybe it's just a question of what they care about?

[Jinsei]

No, I agree entirely, I don't think it automatically means that you have the right attitude towards education - in fact, I actively dislike the ethos of some private schools, and I feel desperately sorry for the children of uberly pushy parents.

However, I still think that parental influence is a key factor in children's achievement, and I remain of the view that a good part of the "value added" at private schools is down to the support and/or pushiness of the parents, rather than because of any superiority in the quality of the schooling. This is reflected in the fact that the children of supportive and/or pushy parents tend to do well in the state sector too.

[smee]

Jinsel, I do get what you mean, but expecting a return isn't what I'd call caring. I think it's just the use of the word 'care' we differ on.

[Growlithe]

They may care in that they are putting the money in, but what about the time?

A guy I used to work with sent his DS to private school, but refused to get on his back about never doing his homework because 'That was his lookout. He will get into trouble, not me'.

Not saying all parents who use private education are like this bloke, but it doesn't necessarily always follow that you have the right attitude towards education just because you pay for it.

[Jinsei]

But clearly they do care, otherwise the kids/teachers would be under no pressure to achieve, would they? They might care about the wrong things - results over and above the wellbeing of their children! - but they clearly are interested and place a high value on the results that their children get.

I am not making any comment whatsoever on the quality of the parenting, positive or otherwise. I'm merely saying that the majority of parents who pay for an expensive private education probably place a high value on education, and that this is likely to be reflected to some extent in the values of their children.

[smee]

Not true, Jinsel. My SIL teaches in a private school and she has a theory that a fair number of the kids she teaches are just items parents throw money at.

The teachers at her (v.good / well established prep) get put under no end of pressure to achieve L5 for the kids because the parents expect it as they're paying. Last year a parent threatened to sue because their poor child didn't reach L5. SIL said it was awful as the poor child just wasn't academic in that way.

I'm really not tarring all private parents by saying that, but you can't assume more will care just because they pay. With a fair number they care because they expect a return.

[Jinsei]

Jinsel ooh naughty. There are plenty of interested and supportive parents who place a high value on education, that do not believe in private education.

Grow, I know, I'm one of them! But I don't know many parents who choose private education who don't give a toss.

My point is not that the parents of privately educated kids care more, rather that the children of parents who are interested and supportive will tend to do better than the children of parents who don't give a toss. And while many parents of state educated children are interested and supportive, there can't be that many disinterested parents who would bother to spend £££ on a private education --unless they just couldn't wait to pack them off to boarding school.

In light of this, I think it's to be expected that private schools will get better results because a higher proportion of the children will have interested and supportive parents. However, that doesn't mean that the privately educated children will necessarily get better results than their state school peers who are from equally interested and supportive homes.

In other words, I don't think it is the schools that are making the difference!

[smee]

poppy, what do you mean by 'good parents'. Those that will tutor/ pay? Really?

Purely anecdotal, but my DS goes to inner city state school in a deprived area. Lots of kids on free school meals, lots of kids with English as a second language. Last year 35% got L5's in yr6, it's going to be more like 50% this year apparently. He's Yr4 atm and there are a lot of kids working at L4.