11 Plus - what levels would indicate suitability in year 4?

[SVN]

Hello,

My son is in year 4. He's always been very bright with regards to literacy and is currently a 4b in both reading and writing. Mathematics is his weaker subject with a level of 3a. I know that none of these levels are exceptional, but the school has always led us to believe that he was doing very well and was considered within the top band of pupils for his age group.

On Friday, when he came home, he told me that four of his classmates had been given a letter offering them in-school tuition for the 11 plus. I'm presuming that they're all more rounded in their abilities, hence them being selected. I have no problem with this, but just wondered if it was worth approaching the school to see if my son can still sit the 11 plus (either with tuition from us or potentially a private tutor) or are we being a bit naive and perhaps he's not really grammar school material? What levels in year 4 would indicate that a child has the potential to possibly pass the 11 plus?

Any input gratefully received.

Thanks.

[Pyrrah]

I think your son's results sound fine for having a bash at the 11+.

I'd have a quiet word with the school about the extra-help and see how it's run.

The primary I'm trying to get DD into runs an after-school club for children wanting to try for selectives. The school is in a very deprived area and the vast majority of parents would never even think of putting their children forward for such schools.

The staff are aspirational for the children, they achieve incredible results given the intake (30% L6 maths at KS2 for example with over 50% of kids on FSM and nearly 70% EAL and v high mobility). Some members of staff give up free time to help children who would get no private tuition and whose parents are probably not best placed to understand the London super-selective debacle (many don't speak English for example).

I don't know if they select the children themselves or whether it is open to all, or self-selecting, but I do think it is fantastic that the staff are aware of the gap and will put extra help in place for their students. The results speak for themselves.

[KandyBarr]

SVN Something like this happened in my son's London primary. It turned out that what they called 'test club' was for a small group of less able children which the school thought would benefit from help with test techniques. Not at all - as we all immediately assumed - for the chosen 'cleverest'. It was embarrassing when indignant parents - me included - challenged the teachers. Advise you to tread cautiously!

[sillyname]

Pushydad/Habba/whatever you call yourself now. You just can't leave it can you?

Your personal vendetta against one particular poster whose opinion does not match your own has no place here. Many of us are sick of hearing it.

[MrButtercat]

I have year 4 twins.1 in top groups who gets picked for everything and the other quieter less motivated runs just behind.There is buggar all between them imvho and I'd go as far as saying my less motivated twin is lightly brighter.

Having looked at the 11+ material it's well within the capabilities of both and would just need an intro to VR and exam technique.

One wants to do it so will be tutoring myself.There is no way school would be deciding such an important decision.

I'd go in and ask for the free tutoring if it was me.Some kids mature earlier and walk the walk and talk the talk iykwim.

[bico]

Best school spin is most likely children. I remember a year 6 boy saying to me that X (another year 6 boy) was going to a different senior school than the majority because it was 'the best school in the country'. It was a good school but definitely not the best!

SVN we are in Bucks grammar catchment and ds is in year 4. Everyone I know has already booked tutors to start at the beginning of year 5 so they have one year's tutoring before the 11+ which I think is in September. Ds won't be doing the 11+ so we haven't had to engage in this. Some of my friends booked sought after tutors from year 2 (to start in year 5). All have kept their bookings despite the change in exam format in Bucks.

[SVN]

Hello,

tiggytape - I completely agree. I definitely don't think the teacher themselves said anything about the 'cleverest' or the 'best' but the children certainly seemed to have picked up on the inference of whatever they were told.

AgnesBligg - thank you, that's very reassuring.

I'm a little relieved that so many of you seem to think that the school's actions were unfair, I thought perhaps I was being a little (a lot) precious about it all. However, I'm not overly concerned about the singling out of individual children, I was more concerned that we may have been harbouring unrealistic expectations for our own son. He's still only in year 4, so I suppose we still have a while to be worrying about it all.

Thanks for all your input.

[AgnesBligg]

SVN my son is at a similar level to yours, and his teacher told us he was working to 11+ standard at our last open evening a while ago. Maths is definitely less strong and they are giving a group he is in booster lessons to address this. I've decided to get some Bond books over the summer to see how he fares with that. I'm hoping he'll get to the grammar with some practice.

[wheresthebeach]

'The best school'? Thems fighting words! What about everyone else? At our school they tell the kids that there isn't a 'best' school. Everyone will find the best for them. I think that's awful.

[ShotgunNotDoingThePans]

Sounds well out of order to me.

[spanieleyes]

I run an 11+ after school puzzle club where we look at some of the question types in the test and then complete the 2 practice papers the grammar schools provide. But the club is open to all year 5's whether they want to sit the 11+ or not, I would certainly never select children to be tutored and NEVER say they were the cleverest! ( many of them aren't!!)

[TheSmallPrint]

No bucks definitely don't tutor for 11+ and this year it will be changing to a different CEM test designed to avoid tutoring apparently. They sit a practice test a week before the real exam in September - literally as soon as they get back to school. The paper is not marked and they can't take it home to study it either.

[bico]

Where are you? I would be very at such blatant discrimination in a state school.

[SVN]

Hello,

No, apparently they were taken out of the classroom and returned with a letter. When my son and his friends asked why they had been asked to go out, they told him it was because 'they were the cleverest in the class and would be doing a test so that they could go to the best school'.

At a recent gifted and talented meeting, the school did mention to all of the parents present, that they usually ran an 11 plus club for children in year 5 and handed out past/sample papers to everyone there to look at and take home.

[xylem8]

Are you sure that it isn't just an 11+ tutor has given the school some flyers to give out in book bags

[bico]

Bucks schools definitely don't do prep. Even though they've changed the format of the exam this year to a non-tutorable test all the tutors are still booked up.

[BabiesAreLikeBuses]

I'm in the midlands. We can't prep pupils for 11+. Up to 10% of our pupils go to grammar schools, each has a different test and the bar seems to vary ie some children who we would judge as being below average sometimes get accepted. Mostly it is our most academic applying though as the local comp is excellent.

As a parent i would see it as very unfair that some pupils were selected for tutoring.

As a teacher i can't understand them doing after hours tuition - we don't get paid for after school clubs and don't have to do one so what's in it for the teacher? All the after school clubs i have ever run have been in things that interest me or get me fired up. Which NVR doesn't.

[CecilyP]

'I don't want to be accused of getting personal'

Why do it then?

[SVN]

Hello again,

Thank you all for taking the time to respond. It's very much appreciated and has reassured me that perhaps it may be worth an attempt, if we can improve his maths' level.

My comment regarding in-house preparations may not be totally correct, think it's in the form of an after-school club for the selected children. Not sure if this would breach any rules on primary schools prepping children for the test. Even if it did, I'm not really of the frame of mind that I would want to lodge a complaint against the school. I just didn't want my son to be dismissed if he did actually have a chance of possibly securing a place.

To answer Sleepyoto, it's not a private school, just your normal primary.

Drwitch - he had a rather disastrous year in year 3 with regards to Maths. His teacher was unwell and then went on maternity leave for two thirds of the school year, and the class had no less than 16 cover teachers in her absence. As a result, he lost his confidence in maths and has since struggled to recover. His current teacher seems to think that he is much more able mathematically than his current level suggests, so I think that maybe with some extra tuition/input we could possibly boost his level.

Thanks once again everyone.

[drwitch]

but back to what the OP wants to know about. My understanding is that you will need to be on track to getting level 5s at the end of year to stand a reasoable chance of passing. A level 3a in maths is quite a way below that tbh although 4bs in literacy are quite far above it. This is probably why the school did not write to you. Do you think that you (or a tutor) can help your ds improve on the maths front?

[xylem8]

well I haven't clue who you are talking about, but certainly in our county primary schools are only allowed to do 1 practice paper in each of VR and NVR per academic year and no other preparation.
Op- it depends what the 11+ in your area consists of.As I said above ours do VR and NVR comparing them to SATS levels is like comparing apples and oranges.They are testing different things

[HabbaDabbaDoo]

.. and that was 'pretty obvious' to you who I was referring to and which thread it came from? Most impressive and interesting at the same time.

[HabbaDabbaDoo]

I posted that 'HRH' thinks that state schools are not allowed to offer 11+ tuition and that was 'pretty obvious' to you? Most impressive jeee.

But staying on topic, they are hardly 'massively disadvantaged' by their schools not offering 11+tuition. A lot of parents home tutor.