Primary school admissions - opinions please...

[MaisyMoo123]

Hi. My son didn't get a place to start in reception at our preferred school. I'm devastated. Not just because it's a wonderful school (and who doesn't want their child to go to one of those!) but because I am so heavily involved at the school and have a huge emotional attachment to the place. It's an infant school and my dd is currently in yr2 there, so moving up to junior school in september, which means the sibling admission rule didn't apply. We live out of catchment but not by much at all. I have been a governor at the school for nearly 2 years and am vice-chair. I know the school really well, have spent hours there working with the Head and other staff members on various things and I know everyone so well. My son has also spent loads of time there and is really familiar with the school and all the staff. He thinks he's going to start there in Sept . I am so sad and all over the place as to what to do now. The school are being really supportive but there is very little they can do. We have placed him on the waiting list and judging by where some people live who have got a place, I'm hopeful we might be fairly high up on it but we can't find out until 13th May and even then it probably won't get us a anywhere. I've spoken to lots of people, some of whom know about the appeals procedure and the advice I'm getting from them is that I don't have a case - basically it would be based on emotion which doesn't come into it. Everyone I speak to who doesn't know the system instantly says I should appeal though, which just makes me wonder if I might be able to win a panel round. I'm pretty sure it's a vain hope I'm clinging to but I'd be grateful for any thoughts people might have on our case. To add to the equation dd is transferring to a linked but completely separate Jnr school and although the sibling rule doesn't apply at present it is due to start being applied from next sept which would probably mean he'd get in. Rubbish.

[MaisyMoo123]

Thanks Tiggy - I really appreciate you taking time out of your busy day to reply! My spelling is just as bad - I blame the phone!

I know being a governor makes no odds at all and I've never expected it to. It's just that my heavy involvement in the school means that my son is so familiar with the place and so at home there - so, me being a gov is relevant only as far as the impact it's had on him and his attachment to one school. Part of me feels penalised by it if anything - I feel like me spending so much time there has unrealistically built his expectations around starting school - we've never said he'll definitely go there he's just assumed as his big sis is there and he's always in and out for things!

I think I need to talk to the school again and talk about numbers and whether they do see me appealing might cause them problems. We have a very good, honest relationship so I think we can be upfront about it.
Thanks again!

[Mutley77]

tiggytape - You have misunderstood what I wrote, which is in fact correct if not very well phrased. I understand that SEN statement children get automatic right to a place which is why I said that would be the only way a special need would really count.

What I meant by the sentence you have quoted is that in my view the only avenue for success that this OP is likely to have in appealing is focusing on the special need and the possible impact upon this need of one school versus another. And in this instance there is an argument for the familiarity minimising anxiety and therefore the issues associated with the stutter. In my experience of friends and people I work with appealing on the basis of this is far more likely to be successful than arguing a social and emotional type reason.

Maisy - of course you make the choice you believe to be in your child's best interests but what I'm saying is you are now past that point in that he hasn't been allocated the place and it was on that basis I suggested you consider the other options positively. You may get through on appeal but you don't seem to have significant grounds and I have seen friends go through the heartache of failed appeals.

[MaisyMoo123]

Thanks Tiggy - your advice is very sound. Do you mind me asking what your background is and how you have such a good understanding of it all?

I appreciate what you're saying about appeals not being scientific. It sounds like whilst the key reasons for appeal are obviously factors, a lot of it comes down to who's on the panel, who else appeals etc. This makes it all the more difficult to decide whether it's worth putting yourself through the ordeal for though.

Can anyone shed any light on the kind if cases that do win at appeal? Everyone keeps saying only very compelling cases get through and people just keep telling me what wouldn't win (I.e everything as far as I can tell!) It's fairly encouraging to hear Tiggy say that "social" cases can win - but that goes against everything I've been told so far, which has basically lead me to believe that nothing, other than proving admission criteria have been wrongly applied, would get a second thought. I'm SO confused.

Ted (think that's right!?) I understand your point now and good to know someone understands what it feels like to be essentially excluded from a school you're so entrenched in. It's more painful than I thought it would be

[kilmuir]

get a grip, you chose to be so involved in the school. I would not be impressed if you got a school place because your child had spent hours playing duplo there!

[MaisyMoo123]

I don't think there's any need to be nasty here kilmuir. I know I choose to be involved in the school and but I certainly don't expect my ds to get in on the back of it. No appeal would ever be won on a child having played duplo in the school and I have never suggested it would. It was just an illustration of how much time he's spent there and how familiar he is with the place. I know none if these reasons mean he is more entitled to a place than any other child and it's not about my child stealing a place from another child anyway.

Tiggy - thanks again. It's great that you're using your experience with all this to help shed light on it for others. Your insights are so helpful. The other 2 appeals experts haven't responded yet - might start another appeals related thread rather than this vague one and see if they spot that.

[idiuntno57]

kilmuir did you mean to be so horrid?

OP is upset. Why say nasty spiteful things.

[PanelChair]

Hi.

Can't add much to tiggy's comprehensive advice, but I am puzzled and alarmed by the school apparently trying to talk you out of appealing with a vague promise to raise the PAN to admit your child. There is a proper formal process for any school to go through, to increase the PAN, and it's unethical (in my view) to dissuade anyone from exercising their right of appeal. Besides, as you see, if they create an extra place there's no guarantee it will go to your child if you're not first on the waiting list.

In constructing your appeal, you need to establish what current numbers in each class are (ie below 30), similar information for previous years would also be helpful. Do set out what your child would gain by attending the school, but (as others have said, some gently and some not so gently) don't go overboard on your child expecting to go to the school or playing with duplo in the HT's office. That will sound flimsy - plenty of children get a school other than the one they expected and do just fine - so you need to look for more concrete reasons, such as the school's Christian ethos, aspects of the curriculum and after-school provision etc.

[MaisyMoo123]

Thanks Panel - that's really helpful.

Just to clarify - the school weren't trying to persuade me not to appeal and implying that they might be able to swing a place for us if they go above PAN later. They're assuming we'll be fairly high on waiting list, in which case there would be the potential for that avenue to be helpful to us. Absolutely no guarantees though.

Their advice was also that we didn't have a strong enough case and that the waiting list was our best option - and I'm still not sure. There are so many differing (and extreme!) opinions on this! I'm just not sure we can build a robust enough case. You say that we need to gather evidence on class sizes - I've also heard that the school will be asked to do this? Would it need to come from both of us?

The school has no clubs that would especially benefit ds (in fact alternative has more!!!) I fear I'm hanging way too much on his familiarity with the place but I know this will look way too flimsy to a panel

[PanelChair]

You need to gather your own evidence on class sizes, because you need to demonstrate that admitting your child won't take the class above 30. If you find that any recent class has had 29 or 30 in years R to 2, that helps your case.

The reason I say don't go overboard on the 'familiarity' argument is that that is the argument always used when children in an attached nursery don't get a place in the school and, on its own, it never works. That said, those are usually ICS appeals, which are argued on narrower grounds, but even so you need to find some other arguments to add to the mix.

[MaisyMoo123]

I've just had a quick chat with the head. She's very supportive. Tahoe confirmed that they currently have 42 in reception and their PAN is 40 - so thinking that's positive?

They have written to everyone who's been offered a place and asked them to confirm that they want it by today. So far one has declined and they're still waiting for 8 to be returned. Plus, there's one person who's accepted the place but is appealing to go elsewhere. Obviously this information is fairly academic as it depends where we are on the waiting list but a little encouraging - especially as judging by where others have hot in from we might be fairly high. Who knows though.

Our case is the fact they can (and have) take more, familiarity with school, established relationship with staff and the fact he's already part of the community, The faith element (- would a letter from vicar help with this if it's only controlled?) and his dysfluency which might be exacerbated by unfamiliar school. I'm struggling to think of any features of this school over the other which we could argue on other than the fact that the other is more chaotic (and actually feels more crowded) which won't suit his personality but that's flimsy I know.

This is so hard but I'm reaching the point where I think I have to get an appeal form submitted and see how we go.

[MaisyMoo123]

Thanks Tiggy - wise words yet again!!

The school has written to all those offered a place and asked them to confirm purely because they had 5 children just not turn up on the first day of term last sept and they just want to avoid that happening again if they can. They won't take any action themselves in terms of releasing places etc it's just for there own admin purposes really. Obviously the actual list is being managed centrally. I know there's nothing concrete in any of this for us really, but little things give me some encouragement anyway!!

It's very reassuring to hear you say that my case is ok. I guess it's a question of pulling all the elements together into a coherent argument. I will endeavour to get a letter from the SALT - she's very nice and I recently touched base with her on the issue so she's aware. Your point about linking the effects of the more chaotic school on ds's dysfluency is really helpful. I'm sure the vicar will be happy to provide a letter too - guessing this should emphasise our links to the church and the fact that ds is part of the community (which includes church and school!?)

I've been told we can call on 20th to find out where we are on the waiting list and that's the day they reallocate spaces too. Seems ages off so time to turn my attention to filling out the appeal form. Do I just list the arguments set out above or do I need more context? And can I submit letters later on?