Jolly Phonics vs Read, write, inc??

[educator123]

My dds are in a school that used Jolly Phonics, but i have since read that Read, Write, Inc is much more effective!

Is this the case or are they both as effective as each other, jsut different schemes?

[mrz]

There isn't a massive divide between RWI & Jolly Phonics (RWI is prehaps more rigorous IMHO) which are just two commercial programmes using the same method ...ORT on the other hand is completely different.

[stealthsquiggle]

I am by the concept of a massive divide between these methods. DC's school has RWI, JP, ORT and other resources and seem to use them all...

[neolara]

Hi MaizieD. No I don't teach ERR but I know a fair bit about it and in the past I've known quite a lot of teachers who use it. I'm interested in your point about independence, but I'm afraid that I don't quite understand it. Why do you think that children won't understand that they are saying the letter sounds, won't understand that they are blending and won't be able to transfer the skills? Have you taught ERR and if so, was that your experience?

[maizieD]

Yes. we are.

In the Essex approach, initially there is lots of modelling and doing things "together" because some children will need this.

I don't disagree. But see my previous comments about independence! Even if the teacher is modelling /ch/ /a/ /t/ - 'chat' there is no guarantee that the children will understand when they respond that they are saying the 'sounds' that the letters spell and blending them, nor that they will apply /ch/ /a/ or /t/ in dfferent places in a different word.

Do you teach ERR?

[mrz]

are we talking about Jonathan Solity's work?

[neolara]

maizieD - In the Essex approach, initially there is lots of modelling and doing things "together" because some children will need this. As children become more competent there is less modelling. But at all stages children should get practise blending lots of different words. There's lots of other ideas that make up the Essex approach, not just direct instruction, which I agree, can be very effective.

[mrz]

I sounds as if you child is doing well.
My personal feelings are that Jolly Phonics can be very effective in reception but as with any programme is only as good as the teacher (obviously the same applies to RWI and other progs)

[educator123]

So if my child is reading words such as - shoal, goat, bigger, snail, hatch etc and is half way through reception should I be concerned or pleased?
She can also write words like goat by using phonics and diagraphs...
I'm worried I think as I've been considering a school move anyway then read that jp is no way near as good as RWI...but I also dot know what the norm is for progression!

[maizieD]

but I a lot of the Read Write inc principals seem to overlap with the Essex research.

That is because both methods are based on Direct Instruction, a method of teaching pioneered by Engleman and Carnine in the USA in the early 1970s. It is an excellent and very powerful technique. I was just questioning the way it was being used in the example simpson gave.

Children do not learn to decode and blend independently if the teacher does it first! Teacher may model it with one word to show how it is done; may even model several times over the course of a lesson if the child doesn't 'get it', but once the technique has been modelled it should be applied independently by the child to different words.

[neolara]

The approach that simpson is talking about (my turn, together, your turn) sounds like it's based on research that went on in Essex in the 1990's. It explicitly teaches blending and segmenting by modeling (my turn), supporting (doing it together) and practising (your turn). The research showed it was a VERY effective way of getting kids to learn to read. When implemented by the researches, they could pretty much get every single child in the class reading. I used to talk to lots of teachers who used this method and I don't think I met a single one who wasn't convinced of it's effectiveness. However, this was in the day when blending and phonics often wasn't taught at all systematically. I think teaching of reading has moved on leaps and bounds in the last 10 years. I don't know the details of JP, but I a lot of the Read Write inc principals seem to overlap with the Essex research.

[educator123]

I can't really move just one because of the logistics.
I know dd1 would love the other school...but dd2 is struggling to settle into school and I think it could be quite traumatic for her then I was concious of the change in phonics programme.

It's an amazing school so I'm sure once she had adapted she would be ok but I think it could take a lot of trauma to get to that point.

I'm in a bit of a situation as the school they are at is in our village, lovely but tiny. The things I love are also it's drawbacks. The other school
Is bigger so no mixed classes, more friendship options and sport (which is why it would suit dd1)
Then we have 3&4 and not sure how they will be yet in terms of suiting the school choices as they are still small.

[simpson]

Maizie - The other thing they do is to split them into smaller groups of maybe 10 and each child has a small magnetic white board with letters and the same principal is applied. Teacher says the word whilst finding the letters and then the group copy. And lots of emphasis on "silly" words ie "chod" etc.

[mrz]

Coconutty they isn't any Annie Apple stuff in Jolly Phonics are you thinking of Letterland?

[mrz]

It was the flash card and repeating the word I meant maizieD

[maizieD]

It's not the DI technique that worries me; that's very well evidenced as being highly effective. It's the telling the word and then getting children to repeat it. You might just as well be teaching 'whole word' if you do that! SP is about decoding and blending to discover the word, not tellingbefore decoding & blending...

[mrz]

I'm afraid maizieD it sounds very like the RWI teaching I've observed. I'm not sure if this is how it's meant to be taught but it does seem to be what is happening.

[maizieD]

In the class I go into (reception) it is a lot of flash cards type teaching ie the teacher holding up the flash card and saying the word first "My turn CH A T your turn (and the whole class repeat the word) CH A T" but this is in reception and it's the bottom phonics group (the whole reception year is streamed for phonics).

That doesn't sound like good phonics teaching at all! The children should be sounding out the word, not the teacher... Interesting, though, the 'my turn, your turn' is a Direct Instruction technique (very fashionable...) but it seems a bit misapplied here

[mrz]

I'm not a huge fan of RWI or the Jolly Phonics reading books.

[simpson]

Do you have to move both of them?

I guess it depends on what type of person your DD2 is.

My DS would never stand for moving schools (he is in yr3) but DD (reception) loves school but I believe she would adapt to anywhere iyswim.

Have a look on the Oxford owl website there are some WRI books on there...although they are the basic ones...but it gives you an idea of what they are like.

[learnandsay]

This is not going to be helpful: My daughter could already read when she started learning JP actions. She learned them in school with the rest of the class. But she's addicted to them. She loves watching their videos. She loves singing their songs. She just loves it. She has no use for it whatsoever. But loves it all the same. We've never had any of the JP books at home. A long time ago we had some RWI books. I thought they were quite clever, Stitch the Witch and so on, less imaginative than the Usborne phonics readers but better than anything else we'd seen.

[educator123]

I'm in a bit of a situation where my eldest dd would benefit, we feel, quite alot from the move. But we are not sure dd2 would (although the move would be to a fab school) but i dont want her to fall back due to a settling in period and a change in phonics!

[simpson]

In the class I go into (reception) it is a lot of flash cards type teaching ie the teacher holding up the flash card and saying the word first "My turn CH A T your turn (and the whole class repeat the word) CH A T" but this is in reception and it's the bottom phonics group (the whole reception year is streamed for phonics).

If you are unhappy with the school and think your DC would do better elsewhere that's fine, but I would not base a decision to move just on JP V RWI iyswim.

[educator123]

Thank you simpson. DD2 is amazing she want to read constantly, which is great and completely different than dd1 who often didn't want to and struggled and it has always been hard to strike a balance with her so i don't put her off further.

I ask partly as we have considered changing schools for various reason the other school would be great for dd1 but i clocked when visiting that they use RWI and i was worried how dd2 would adapt or possible be set back by it.

Then i started looking into the differences and read alot about RWI being better, i wasn't sure if thats because it is newer!